Episode 106: The journey of binge eating recovery with rhonda chamberlain
On today’s episode of The Diet Diaries I’m talking with mom, physiotherapist and recovering disordered eater Rhonda Chamberlain about her journey of binge eating recovery.
I’m so grateful to have Rhonda as a guest because she shares the years she spent binge eating, restricting and punishing her body with exercise and how she finally came to terms with it.
Here’s what we cover:
Rhonda’s background as a high level gymnast and the lasting effect that had on her body image and eating
Her rock bottom moment that changed everything
How pregnancy impacted her relationship with food
How binge eating became her way of dealing with life
The specific skills she uses to stay connected to her body and away from the external pressures of diet culture
In this blog post I cover a key skill to to help you move binge eating recovery and this post is all about how to transform the good/bad thinking around food.
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Jordana: Hey everyone. Welcome back to episode 106 of the Movement Diaries. I'm here with the guests today and guests are kind of few and far between right now. So when I bring [00:01:00] someone on they're really. Special and significant. Not to say that all my other guests haven't been, they have been too. But I'm really trying to be especially thoughtful right now about who I bring on and how it's relevant and helpful for you guys who are listening.
Jordana: So I'm talking today with my friend and my colleague Rhonda Chamberlain, and we met as. So many of the people that have come on here through our, our business mentor Shante Cofield and this amazing group that she's put together, people, and I was on Rhonda's podcast recently and we kind of connected because she has been through her own.
Jordana: She's a, a physiotherapist, which is what they call PTs up in Canada and . She's been through her own. Journey and, and struggles with food and body image exercise. And we kind of connected over that to start with. And so we were like, this would be a great conversation to kind of share and have on the podcast.
Jordana: Because I think it's so important for everyone to hear, obviously not just like me talking about my experience, but to hear from other women who have been through the. Struggle and what tools and techniques they use and where [00:02:00] they're at now and where they wanna go. So that's my very long winded intro for for Rhonda.
Jordana: So, hi
Rhonda: Hi. Thanks for having me.
Jordana: Thanks for being here. So let's kind of get started with, I dunno, I guess maybe a little bit of background. So it's funny, usually when I have guests on, we start off with more of like the professional capacity of their work and obviously that's super relevant. But maybe I'd love to kind of dive into what your kind of big struggles have been around food, what your background is with that, and sort of where you're at today.
Jordana: And we'll obviously kind of jump around within, you know, that story.
Rhonda: For sure. So like many people, I feel my story goes back to childhood and through therapy I've worked through a lot of my food issues and my exercise and body image issues. So I grew up as a competitive gymnast and so. You know, living as a competitive gymnast in the moment when I was young. [00:03:00] So I started competitive gymnastics when I was, I think five continued in that sport until I was 16.
Rhonda: So it was a very significant part of my life. And yes, you know, all the stereotypes in my experience were true. That we were expected to be small. Watch what we ate, you know, talking about limiting our food intake was common. We were weighed on a scale on a regular basis from a very young age.
Jordana: Wow.
Rhonda: So, yeah, compared to each other, you know, so and so's body is smaller than yours, like pinched and prodded like I had, yeah.
Rhonda: Not to stereotype the coaches that I had, but I had European coaches who came from sort of a culture of gymnastics where girls were taken from their homes and put into these gymnastics camps and that was their life. And so yeah, bringing that to Canada. Maybe didn't always translate super well, but, so that was my experience.
Rhonda: And so, you know, growing up and then going through retire, I, I say I retired from gymnastics because it was a very conscious choice. At 16, I was ready to be done, excited to be doing school sports, have more time with friends. So I retired at 16 and then of course my body started to change, so, up until that point again, I was very strict with what I ate and very conscious about having a thin, lean body.
Rhonda: I, I feel like even going through that, I very much was like a binge restrict person because we were kind of taught, you know, when we're in competition season to really. Again, watch what we ate, be really mindful of what we were eating, and then when we were done competing, it was like a free for all.
Rhonda: Just eat what you want cuz you're, you know, you're off the hook for a while until you compete again. So that, yeah, I think I just kind of lived that way for a long time. And then, yeah, you know, my body started changing after retirement and then, you know, I went to university. You know, suddenly was like many of us, you know, able to make a lot of my [00:05:00] own food decisions and maybe not always the best decisions.
Rhonda: So, so yeah, inevitably gained some weight throughout university and yeah, just really started to feel uncomfortable in my body. And I will say I do, I've always had thin privilege. You know, I genetically am a small or framed person, and so, so yeah. So even when I felt uncomfortable in my body, you know, At the most, I, yeah, maybe was like a size 10 kind of thing.
Rhonda: So again, not to compare and say what's, you know, small and what's big, but but again, just to say that we all have our struggles and, you know, going from a, a sport of gymnastics and then ha going into a body I felt uncomfortable with, that was a challenge. And then, yeah, so I'd say my journey, I've always been interested in health and.
Rhonda: So, you know, after I was done with gymnastics, I always was in the gym, always loved being in the gym. And I would say like my gym life was more again about like controlling [00:06:00] and managing my weight and trying to stay small. That was sort of my gym life for the longest time. And then, yeah, so got into, I'm a physiotherapist, so got into like the health field that way.
Rhonda: And I feel like I always was just drawn to the newest. Now I know to call them like fad diets, but in the moment it would be, it would be like wellness challenges, right? Or like nutrition challenges. I would get kind of drawn into those all in the name of trying to be like quote unquote healthier. But again, now looking back, I see how disordered a lot of it was so.
Rhonda: Yeah, so like I remember specifically even before I became a physio, I remember in university and again, so I was, you know, like trying to stay active. I played field hockey in university as well, so I was staying active that way. But yeah, really having just very disordered eating habits in the sense of, again, that binge restrict.
Rhonda: So I remember like studying for exams, like many of us [00:07:00] can probably relate. Like binging on, you know, junk food. Like I would buy like chocolate and just eat it until I was sick. And that was like my stress management. And then the next day feeling so sick, feeling so guilty, going to the gym, working it off, like that type of mentality.
Rhonda: And I remember, you know, I think I actually was dating somebody at the time and he introduced. To, it was called like Body, body for Life or something like that. And it was basically what they recommended was six days a week you eat like as clean, and I hate that term now, but as clean and healthy as possible.
Rhonda: And then one day a week you got a, like a binge day where you, it was a free for eat whatever you want. Nothing's off the table. And so, and again, this was like, like a popular book that was praised as this like very healthy. Way to do things and that was so toxic for me. And I still like, I blame that book for like really spiraling [00:08:00] me into like binge restrict behavior. And so, so yeah, so I did that and then I remember like being so good with it for like a good chunk of time, like maybe a few months, cuz I, again, as a gymnast, I was always so disciplined so I could stick with something for quite a long time and like, quote unquote be successful. Like I would lose some weight.
Rhonda: And then, but I remember like in university again, just dealing with the stress of like moving away from home you know, having, making my own choices for food and having that freedom. And I remember like trying so hard to be that strict eater six days a week. And I remember I would go. Into like the cafeteria where there's just like a free for all of food and just like buying or getting like cookies.
Rhonda: And I just like, I felt out of control around food. Like I felt like I couldn't not get a cookie and I would get so mad at myself and beat myself up because again, for a few months I was so good at. And [00:09:00] then all of a sudden I hit a wall where all I wanted to eat was cookies and they had like the best cookies at this one place on campus.
Rhonda: And yeah, I just felt like, and it's such a, it was such a struggle for me, like such a personal struggle that I didn't share with anybody. Honestly, I, I think this is the first time I'm telling the story out loud, but it just was so what's the word? Like, I just felt so discouraged. I felt so defeated. I felt.
Rhonda: So much like food just controlled me. And that was just a very depressing feeling. And so, yeah, so I think I would like then go off these diets and realize, okay, like many of us, it's like, oh, it worked for a while, but now it's not working, so I'm gonna move on to something else.
Rhonda: So, yeah.
Jordana: the problem is the problem's me. The problem is not what I'm trying to do, it's just that I'm not doing a good job, or I don't have the willpower, I'm out of control. So it's, I'm the problem, not like the diet was never the problem.
Rhonda: Exactly. Yeah. So that was university and then [00:10:00] physio school. I'm trying to remember like what my eating was. I just remember my go-to when I was stressed would be to like binge on food and it was my co coping mechanism. I was, you know, never, I know university days is when people really, you know, drink a lot of alcohol.
Rhonda: That was never really my thing. So Yeah, food was like my best friend, like food was my coping mechanism. I remember like sometimes like studying for exams and whatever I would like binge on, I would like eat so much of it. I would feel sick. Mm-hmm.
Jordana: I love what you just said about like, and you kind of said it in passing, but I think there's something there where you said like, food is my best friend. Right? And it's like that thing that you can rely on and you can go to when it feels comforting and you know what's gonna be there. Even though ultimately, right, we know it's, it's not a friend in a way that there's right, that, that you know, productive support, obviously, but it's just like the way that we, it feels [00:11:00] comfortable and familiar and supportive.
Jordana: Even, even when it's like, you know, to you is more of like a clinical term, like maladaptive or it's detrimental. Sometimes we not, sometimes we all do things. That are not good for us, even though, or I should say that the opposite. We all do things that are comfortable and familiar, even though they're ultimately like not good for us because there's safety in that and our nervous systems, our bodies are always seeking that.
Rhonda: for sure. And yeah, I remember even thinking going through these binges. And it's, it's just fascinating like how our brains work. Because again, like as a young gymnast, I was very much taught like how we eat determines our body size, right? And so I remember again, going on these diets and I would, yeah, like lose a bit of weight.
Rhonda: But again, I was always smaller. So like my weight loss would be like five, 10 pounds at the most kind of thing. And so I remember when I would like go off, quote unquote go off these diets, I just kept waiting for my body to like drastically change and like gain a ton of. [00:12:00] I never necessarily did like, again, fluctuating like five, 10, maybe 15 pounds would happen.
Rhonda: And so it was almost like thinking back, you know, almost like a rebellious tendency in me too, because I think, again, for so many, it would've been like 12 plus years of my life as a gymnast. I was taught to, yeah, very much control and restrict and like, heaven forbid you eat chocolate. You know, it's all these rules.
Rhonda: And so I think sometimes part of my journey was I felt almost like powerful in that rebellion, but then I'd also feel guilty. So there was like all like fluctuating emotions that Yes. But ultimately the issue is that food controlled my emotions. Right. All of these fluctuating emotions were, yeah, like you said, not, not it was not a healthy behavior in that sense.
Jordana: And it's so interesting how you said, like you were just saying you felt like these kind of like. contrasting emotions and that in some ways, like you [00:13:00] felt like really guilty about doing it, but doing like eating this way. But then at the same time it felt like rebellious and powerful and like you were getting to make the decisions.
Jordana: And it's so interesting, like how those feelings around food can coexist.
Rhonda: for
Jordana: And it's like, we always want, I think we always want things to be like, well, this is how this feels. This is how this is. But it's just, we're so much more complex than that. So it's like, it's always like a both end to like feel these seemingly opposing or just very different emotions at the same time.
Jordana: And it's like, well then it's like, then we wanna label what's right, what's what's, okay. Like what's the way, you know, that I should feel rather than just like accepting. That these things, that it's normal for us to feel more than one thing at a time.
Rhonda: For sure. Yeah, no, that, that has been part of my journey is recognizing. Two very opposite emotions can coexist and it doesn't, they don't cancel each other out.
Jordana: Yes, totally. And that applies like to so many other things, like when you start to get, [00:14:00] you know, more like looking at, like working on the skills around food and especially coming from backgrounds like ours, cuz I'm, I was not like a gymnast or an athlete in that way, but, Dealt with very similar kind of binge restrict cycles around food was kind of like my thing as well and lots of like, you know, yeah.
Jordana: Clean eating, dieting and then having the cheat day on the weekend and then eating as much as I could or wanted to. Cuz it was my chance right up until like, right up until I would go to sleep. And even if I didn't want it, it was like, I'm just gonna eat this thing now cause I can't have it tomorrow.
Jordana: Like it's just, yeah. And to the point where you are feeling like, and maybe even getting like physically ill But you know, when we start to look at, you know, some of these skills around food and having these feelings of like, This food, let's say like I, I'm a cake person. I love cake. So, and I remember when I first learned this, it was, I was working on, you know, doing it with cake specifically.
Jordana: Like, how do I have a piece of cake and not like, eat four more pieces and [00:15:00] how do I not tell myself, well, you just can't have any cake. Like, how do I, how do I find that place? And it's very much about learning. These feelings are gonna coexist. That yes, you may have a piece of. and you may feel that this cake is so delicious and I really want more.
Jordana: And I also know that if I eat another piece of cake, I'm gonna feel like shit. And allowing those two feelings, emotions, thoughts. I mean, emotions and thoughts are different things, but to exist at the same time, rather than having to choose one. Right? So it's like just this acceptance of things.
Jordana: Coexisting is a really important like skill, I think. And because it applies to so many. You know, areas of this work,
Rhonda: For sure. Yeah. Yeah. So then I, when I was, became a physiotherapist, I worked for 10 or so years at a CrossFit gym. And in the CrossFit world, you know, like mo many fitness realms there's a lot of, again, like nutrition challenges that happen. So, I did many rounds of Whole 30. [00:16:00] I tried can't even think of all of them, but
Rhonda: anyways, we did, we did all kinds yeah, paleo.
Rhonda: I did paleo for a little while. So yeah, all these different ways of eating it again in the name of health, right? So we would have these challenges where we'd get point system based on how well you did in terms of how many workouts you complete, how you know, how clean and how successful your eating habits were.
Rhonda: And I remember again, it's like funny as some of these stories that sort of stick out. I have two stories. One of them was I was doing whole 30. So whole 30 if people don't know. So basically, You know, you're cutting out sugars, you're cutting out dairy, you're cutting out bread, essentially is the big things and, and alcohol.
Rhonda: And so I remember I was living with my sister at the time, and again, doing so well. I was like very always on the ball with these things and you know, successfully following the plan. And I remember one afternoon, it was like a Sunday afternoon, I just, I probably. Starving. And I was like, I just need something sweet.
Rhonda: And I think I [00:17:00] ate five apples in a row because apples were allowed. And it like, as I'm doing it, as I'm having like apple after apple, I'm like, this is not
Jordana: right? That something's wrong. Yeah.
Rhonda: something is not right about this. And again, someone might hear that and be like, what's wrong with that? But it's, it just goes to show how like strict I was being with myself and how.
Rhonda: Yeah, how like why couldn't, in that moment, why couldn't I just go have something sweet? But because I was so competitive and I'm such a like athlete, I just couldn't cheat. Like, I just couldn't
Rhonda: bring myself to cheat. And so to get around it, I had five apples in a row and it's just so ridiculous to think about
Rhonda: and yeah.
Jordana: because it's also, it's still like that binge mentality. know, it's like when, think about now, when would you ever eat like five apples in one
Rhonda: Never.
Jordana: you wouldn't, you wouldn't do that. So it's like that, that urge to eat. So much of one thing was still [00:18:00] there and you were just in a place where you were being so strict and so rigid that somehow you found like, I mean that's Will, this is all willpower.
Jordana: To choose to eat something that, and I'm using air quotes like healthy. It's actually, it's really, it's actually, it's like really interesting, like how, like the overlap between like that disordered binge behavior then into like, okay, well, but I have to eat something healthy while, while I do it. And I can't imagine like how completely unsatisfying
Rhonda: so unsatisfying I think that's the thing. I was like searching for the satisfaction and not finding it right. So it's like, okay, maybe one more Apple will do it. And then I think I just remember again, just feeling so defeated of like. Why do I suck at this? Like why am I failing? Why can't I do this? I'm the only one that's failing.
Rhonda: What's wrong with me? Right? All those spiraling thoughts. And then another story I remember, I think I shared this on Instagram one time. Went to, so I'm a big Toronto Blue Jay's fan baseball fan, and my whole family is, and I went to a Blue Jay's game, I think it was [00:19:00] with my family, with my mom, my dad, and my sister, and I think I forget what I was doing at that time.
Rhonda: Some, again, some nutrition challenge. And the funny thing is again, like when I'm, when I was in those worlds, I would get sort of like an ego about me, right? Like I was all high and mighty and like, you know, my family can't restrict all these temptations, but like, look at me. So I remember going to this Jay's game and bringing like, Some kind of nutrition, granola bar or something for a snack.
Rhonda: And so, yeah, like my sister went and got ice cream and she's like, aren't you gonna come get ice cream? I was like, no. I pull out my little granola bar and I, and again, I like, thought, I was like, look at me like almost SMU about it, right? Like, I, I can stay on track and look at me. I'm doing so good. And you know, I remember talking to my sister about that story.
Rhonda: She's like, I remember. And I remember being so annoyed at you and Yeah, like even my sister has said like, now that I'm, you know, I've broken up with diet culture, I always say she's like, you're so much more fun to be around cuz we can go for dessert [00:20:00] and we can, you know, have fun meals and not talk about how bad it is or talk about how many calories it is.
Rhonda: And that's just the funny thing. It's like in those moments I didn't see how much it was taking away from my quality of life. I really.
Jordana: Right, because the, the, the promise of the, of the happiness that the weight loss gives, like trumps everything.
Rhonda: Yeah.
Jordana: nothing. We just prioritize and we're, we're willing to sacrifice anything. And it seems normal. And that's the thing, like it just seems normal. It's been, it, you know, you mentioned like the, the terminology of diet, culture and, and for me, diet culture.
Jordana: When we're, when we're sacrificing anything around our emotional or mental wellbeing in the name of weight loss or in, you know, changing the size and shape of our body. And that's just become normalized. Like, like as normal, as like the sky is blue. It just, it's normal to suffer. It's normal to hate a diet.
Jordana: It's normal to, you know, bring your [00:21:00] food like that places or eat your meal before and then not eat when you go out. And you know, it's, It's, that's why these conversations are so important and I'm so grateful for you sharing all of this and sharing, you know, the parts of your story from when you were a kid and in gymnastics.
Jordana: Because that's like where the like shame comes from, right? Is in silence, is in people being so afraid that they're the only one going through this. Like, but you just said, you're like, why am I the only one that can't do this diet? Maybe there were other people binge eating apples and you just never
Rhonda: Exactly.
Jordana: But someone listening. You know, may hear this and be like, oh my God, like I'm going through this right now. And then they know that like they're not the only one. And they're by far in a way, I mean, not the only one is like an understatement. I mean, there's millions of women who are been through this and are going through it now.
Jordana: So it's just, but every story is, is so important.
Rhonda: for sure. Yeah. And so I will say, and, and this is interesting because I think this has been an epiphany for me just in the last few [00:22:00] months of part of my healing journey with food. I think pregnancy was really healing for my relationship with food. And so, and I think a lot of women might say this, you know, you, there's a sense of freedom when you're pregnant, you know, just in terms of body image of, you know, you're supposed to have a large belly so you can kind of embrace that.
Rhonda: But it's interesting cuz thinking about my first pregnancy, I was really sick with both of my pregnancies for the first, probably almost two. Almost three months I would say. And yeah, so no even longer, like four months. And so I remember all I would eat and all my body wanted was plain bagels with butter or like plain pasta with butter, like carbs basically.
Rhonda: You know, I would just came off sickness and that's all my body wanted as well, was just plain carbs. And that's all I was craving. And I remember that first pregnancy. Again, just like that, the two sides of me, like the side of me that truly that's all I could [00:23:00] eat was like being, you know, kind and like Rhonda, you just gotta get something in you.
Rhonda: But the other side of me, again, that athlete brain, that competitiveness, that side of me that wanted to have a fit pregnancy, the side of me that wanted, like that belly only pregnancy, all of these things that are bombarded onto us, those two sides were competing. So I. Like having pasta for like every lunch.
Rhonda: And I remember even just like trying to justify it to a coworker. Not that he was judging me, but I felt like I had to justify. I like even said out loud like, this is all I can eat right now. And he's like, that's great. Like almost like, why are you telling me that? But I just, because again, like I lived in this world where, Yeah, like I just felt this pressure, and it was probably mostly self-imposed to be this fit example of this healthy eating, exercising person, and heaven forbid I have pasta for every meal during my pregnancy.
Rhonda: And so it was a very like [00:24:00] fighting battle, I would say for my first pregnancy. Something about the second. So I think after, after postpartum my first time, I quickly got back into dieting. I quickly got back into calorie counting. I would say that was like my go-to. So to lose the baby weight and right back to that world, like nothing had changed.
Rhonda: Cuz again, I think I was like, okay. You know, I'm done with pregnancy. Now it's like time to get back on track. So went through that. And then the second pregnancy, I don't know what it was about it, maybe because it was my last pregnancy, I knew we were only having two kids. It felt, I felt so free with my food choices, and again, I was nauseous, so I just let myself eat what I needed to.
Rhonda: And something about that whole pregnancy, giving myself like unconditional permission to eat. I think I had to really listen to my body during both of my pregnancies, cuz I got full so quickly and that nauseousness would set in if I overate. And so I had almost no [00:25:00] choice but to listen to my body throughout again, that second pregnancy specifically where yeah, there was something healing in that second pregnancy.
Rhonda: Carried over into postpartum, but I, I will say it hit a little bit of a rock bottom. And I kind of talked about this when you were on our, on our podcast Jordanna that. Yeah, so like I felt sort of like was starting my healing journey with food, but again, the messages and the pressure and the self-imposed pressure to bounce back after that pregnancy was still very strong.
Rhonda: And so that was the first time I tried keto, was after my second daughter and. Again, my competitiveness set in, and mind you, I was, I think eight weeks postpartum when my body was still needing like lots of calories to heal. I was restricting and I was eliminating food groups and I was being so strict, and I remember one night going to.
Rhonda: [00:26:00] And feeling like a migraine headache so bad. I've never had migraines until that time. Like a migraine headache. So bad. I thought I was gonna throw up. I also thought like I could feel my heart racing. Like I looked at my husband and I was like, something's not right. Like I was so close to saying like, I think we should call 9 1 1.
Rhonda: Like, I felt so, so awful. And he looks at me and he's like, Rhon. , you need to go eat something. I'm like, no, no. Like, no, I'm doing so well, blah, blah, blah. He's like, go downstairs and eat something. And so I did, and I think I ate a banana, which again, like Rhonda, you're, you're ridiculous.
Rhonda: Like, eat some bread, eat some bread ate a banana.
Rhonda: And sure enough, within half an hour, my, you know, my heart stopped racing. I started to feel better, my migraine went away, and that was my rock bottom moment. . Yeah, I went to bed, was fine. Woke up the next day and yeah, looked at my husband, I was like, I'm done. Like never again am I doing this to my body.
Rhonda: [00:27:00] And yeah, so I know not everybody reaches that, that rock bottom, but that was mine. And yeah, so, and it's funny too cuz like once I reach that rock bottom, my mentality and the way I was thinking about food went back to like, I reverted back to how I felt during pregnancy and I remember. very vividly making that comparison of how free I felt and how wonderful I felt during pregnancy to have that pressure taken off of me with food.
Rhonda: And so, yeah, so part of me was like, why can't I give myself that permission when I'm not pregnant? Like it was such a, a light bulb moment. And so, yeah, so truthfully, like I didn't even necessarily. Follow, you know, like a specific guide to intuitive eating. But I think I just naturally started intuitively eating and I started definitely following different accounts on Instagram that would talk about intuitive eating and talk about the negative side of diet culture.
Rhonda: So I started unlearning a lot just, you [00:28:00] know, with my knowledge as well and my mindset and yeah, just started to slowly. Get out of that mindset and
Jordana: So how long ago, how, how long has that been since you, you know, had that experience with, with the Banana
Rhonda: Yeah. With a banana. So my daughter, Tegan, that was postpartum with her pregnancy and she is now three in a few months. So it was pretty much exactly three years ago that, and, yeah.
Jordana: And what would you say, you know, when you, when you use the term intuitive eating, like obviously there's sort of, you know, there's the intuitive eating, you know, method and approach, which has a lot of like very specific and, you know, guidelines. But a lot of people, you know, I think definitely sort of interpret that and, and use that term in different ways.
Jordana: So I just would love to hear like, what does that mean for you? Like how does that show up for you kind of day to day? And when you're choosing, you know, what you're, what you're eating, how you're eating, why you're eating,
Rhonda: Yeah, so I will say that my second [00:29:00] postpartum journey was a journey on multiple levels with food and exercise, and a large part of it was, Learning how much I didn't listen to my body and learning how much as an athlete, I ignored my body and how much I just pushed feelings down. And so as I started to learn to listen to my physical body in the terms of, so I had some pelvic floor symptoms that I dealt with, and truly that is what got me into my.
Rhonda: To this day. And so yeah, learning to listen to my symptoms in my body and learning how to navigate that. And some, for some reason, that also translated into learning how to listen to my body in regards to food. So again, like I remember, you know, for years, Starving, you know, like going on this, these diets and feeling that those pains of starvation and just ignoring them or like drinking water instead, or you know, go having a nap.
Rhonda: Like any distraction to just ignore that feeling [00:30:00] to the point that sometimes you're like numb to that feeling, right? And like, and the binging too, right? So like I said before, you know, I would go on these binges, eat so much that I would physically feel ill. , but I was so good at just ignoring that feeling and again, just being numb to that feeling that that was just a normal thing. And so, yeah, honestly just really, so I, I meditate as well, so I think just, you know, getting into a bit of a spiritual journey, getting into a therapy journey, and just learning to sit with my body and not numbing myself with food. Like giving myself that time and that space to breathe, like then I could finally tune in and actually like hear my body, which again, it sounds like kind of woo woo if, if you're not into this world.
Rhonda: But it's a thing, like it truly your body does talk to you. And so yeah, so again, like giving myself that permission to eat like [00:31:00] junk food. I will say like, and again, it might be frustrating for people to hear this, it was a lot easier than I thought it would be.
Rhonda: Cause something switched in me that as soon as I gave myself permission to eat, like for me it's chocolate.
Rhonda: So mini eggs are a big one for me. And chocolate covered almonds, those are like two for me. Chips is now more of a thing for me too, and. . Yeah, I would, you know, like eat, say mini eggs and yeah. As soon as I started to feel sick, I would tell myself like, Rhonda, you can have these again tomorrow.
Rhonda: There's nothing, there's no rule. You're not in a challenge. There's nothing telling you this is your last day on earth to eat many eggs. And so something about that permission just worked wonders for me because I put them away and like give myself permission to eat them again tomorrow. And maybe I went through phases where like I ate [00:32:00] like ice cream or sweets.
Rhonda: And honestly still to this day I have like a snack, like chips or sweets or I am just someone that really likes having something like that at night. I just love that. And yeah, giving myself that permission. Cause I think for years, I felt guilty about doing that, right? I would like have this rule that, again, only on weekends I could do that.
Rhonda: Or once a week I could do that. But as soon as I told myself like, you can do this every single night, it took that power of food away. And I was able to just have a little bit enough to like feel satisfied. And again, I will say I'm not perfect. I still have times where I'll overeat or I'll like, you know, have a, a mini binge kind of thing, but I don't beat myself up about it anymore cuz I think I still kind of do eat according to my, my emotions at times.
Rhonda: But, but again, it's just knowing that I can do that again tomorrow or knowing. Yeah, like that, that feeling [00:33:00] of feeling sick, like I don't have to get to that point to, yeah, to have those treat.
Jordana: Yeah, the permission is everything, and I know that when people, they'll hear that. The fear is, well, if I give myself permission to have it again tomorrow, I'm going to eat the entire bag tomorrow. And then I'm gonna do the same thing the day after that. I'm gonna do the same thing, the same thing the day after that.
Jordana: And I totally like, I understand that fear, cuz that's all we know. It's like we don't, we don't really like, have the skills to kind of know how to eat some of these foods, like in kind of a, a, a portion size that, that feels good. And so there's like, there's that piece of it, which can be learned in different ways.
Jordana: But in order to do that, right, you're exactly right. Like there has to be, we have to allow ourselves to have it. And in doing so, so much of the overeating and the bing is driven by that, that panic and that fear that it's being taken away at midnight when, when my cheat day is [00:34:00] over, when this party is over, I'm not allowed.
Jordana: And so once. When we kind of like decrease that panic level, right? Then we start to kind of create like a more like a little bit more, kinda more like safety and comfort in knowing this thing isn't going away. And so it's like the scarcity, right? I mean, the scarcity shows up like in so many places, but like the way that we, you know, you mentioned this earlier, the way it's like, I think you said just say self-inflicted.
Jordana: I'm not sure if you, if you mentioned that word, but but again, because we think it's the only way, like you were taught this. From when you were a kid in gymnastics and then again in college, like it just shows up over and over again. And giving yourself, giving unconditional permission to have the food.
Jordana: And that doesn't mean that like, and this is where, this is sort of like where my approach differs from intuitive eating, right? Cause intuitive eating says like, you can give yourself unconditional permission to eat as much of that thing as you
Rhonda: Yeah,
Jordana: And. Yes, you, you can do that, but again, likely, like, you're probably not gonna feel great.
Jordana: So [00:35:00] sometimes it's helpful like to add some structure around that, which is simple as like putting one serving on a plate and sitting at a table, finishing that serving and then seeing like how you feel. But yeah, like I'm, I'm so glad like that you, that you brought that up because it really is and I that.
Jordana: Like with me too. Like it was, I remember we were having cake for my mom's birthday and I mentioned earlier, cake is like my thing and being like really stressed about, well, do I not have any, do I have one really small piece so I can go back and get more? Do I have one regular size piece and then say that like that's all that I can have.
Jordana: And like trying to figure out what's the best option and then. In that process, just like learning, put the cake on a plate. Sit down, put a bite in your mouth, eat it slowly. Does it taste good? What are the textures? What are the flavors? And as you take more bites, like does this still taste as good as it's in the first bite?
Jordana: Is it as even as good as you like romanticized it to be?
Rhonda: for sure.
Jordana: And it's so true, like when you pay attention [00:36:00] and you give yourself permission that if you want more, you can have. it people. And I think this is where like we have to have like a leap of faith and like trust the process you really do. It does start to lose the pull that it has on.
Rhonda: It does. Yeah. Yeah. And I, I talk about sort of a pendulum swing analogy in terms of exercise a lot, and this is my experience with food where I do think, you know, I, I was on a huge pendulum swing in my eating where it was like that binge on one side and then restrict on the other. So it was like these opposite extremes.
Rhonda: I would just swing from one side to. And I think there's like a spirituality term about that where you'll never find peace with that cuz our natural human state is like that. Resting just a little bit of oscillation in the middle. And so an exercise, I was the same, either. It was like a hardcore, crazy workout.
Rhonda: I'm sweating buckets or I'm resting and I'm not doing anything and I'm sitting on the couch. And so my food and my eating or my exercise life would very much parallel [00:37:00] each other. And so yeah, I kind of just always had that analogy in the back of my mind. You know, I think probably when I did, when I was pregnant and when I first, you know, quit dieting, I probably did swing a little bit more towards the, like eating too much of those things because I could, it was finally like, yes, I have permission to do it.
Rhonda: And then, but yeah, and then, but I just never swung the opposite way. I never swung into restriction. Again, something about it I was like, I never wanna do that again. But just over time, just naturally. Again, because I had permission to eat those things and because I was able to listen to my body, I eventually found myself.
Rhonda: Now I'm like more in that middle ground again of that just like oscillating a little bit to one side or another at times, but overall in the middle of that black or white thinking. And so having that analogy in my mind always helped me too, is like, am I, am I swinging the opposite extreme right now?
Rhonda: Like how can I find my way back to the.
Jordana: I love that. I love that as [00:38:00] like a really kind of, even like, it's like a visual tool as well. Like, you know, we all, you know, think and kind of process things differently, but I love that as like a like there's these things called mnemonic devices. I don't know if that's what that is, but just a way to kind of give yourself some context and like a f framework.
Jordana: For your behavior and a way to kind of make sense of it. So, yeah. I love that. So now you're like, you know, three and a half ish years kind of into this work, you know, do you notice a difference in, in what it feels like to do it now versus what it felt like to do this work? Like, at the beginning in terms of like how much effort it takes and how much you have to pay attention and think about it.
Jordana: You know, has anything shifted for you or.
Rhonda: Yeah, it, you know, I, I sort of mentioned that it was like easy-ish in the sense of I just, you know, reached that breaking point that I was like, I am never doing this again. But I will say, yeah, like in the beginning, I think I found myself still fluctuating a little bit towards that, like, overeating of those things.
Rhonda: Where, and again, I still, not to [00:39:00] say I never do that, but. It is like just the freedom of freeing up that brain space is just so wonderful that Yeah, like I don't. So even for an example, like this past weekend, a friend of mine we went to her baby shower, and so yeah, sure enough, it's, you know, it's sort of like a buffet style, potluck style, tons of different awesome, yummy foods, and I would get stressed out in those environments because I would eat myself sick.
Rhonda: And so, yeah, in that environment, again, I think I, I overindulged a little bit, mostly because it was foods, you know, maybe my belly's not used to. Yeah, just it sometimes I almost like, I remember back to my binge days and like really getting so excited about something like that because I would like allow myself to eat whatever.
Rhonda: And I remember going through feelings of like almost disappointment in my stomach of like, stomach, why can't you eat more? Like this is disappointing. And so like in at parties like that now I kind of feel that way. [00:40:00] I'm so, you know, I'm, I really respect my body and I really listen to my body and I don't wanna feel crappy.
Rhonda: I don't wanna feel like I'm gonna throw up. So, yeah, like I listen to my body and I don't reach that point as much anymore. And then it's like, but I really still want more of those things, but like, it's not enough to make myself feel sick anymore. And, you know, for years I would just push past that uncomfortable point.
Rhonda: So it, yeah, like I always, I don't take those moments for granted. I'm always so thankful. In those moments of like how at peace, I feel how at peace that I can just kind of eat what I want, graze a little bit you know, have some treats that I don't normally eat cuz I just don't, you know, have them around all the time and yeah, again, maybe overeat a little bit, but not to the point of feeling sick and that it's just such a really, it's really, really amazing feeling and I think it's just opened up so much brain space for.
Rhonda: In other realms that, again, I'm just so thankful that I Yeah. Found peace with food that, yeah, it's just, let me be a [00:41:00] full human again.
Jordana: Yeah. I, I love that you said so many, so many things in that just, you know, the, the story about going to the baby shower that. That resonate with me and I hope, resonate with people who are listening and most importantly, I think. That feeling that you said at the end about like, feeling grateful for being where you are and like, not taking it for granted.
Jordana: Like I feel that way too, like when I go to things like that or parties or on vacation you know, places where again, it would've been like an all or nothing. Like a, well I'm gonna go to this thing, I'm not gonna eat at all, or I'm gonna go to this thing and eat whatever I want and then tomorrow I won't eat like any of this stuff.
Jordana: Those extremes. Right. And to, I still like years into this. When I see myself like making the choices that feel good, I'm like, oh my God, like this, this is, it never gets old. It really like never gets old. And you know, I think like you sound definitely similar to me in that it seemed like it was something that was never possible.
Jordana: Like I had fully, fully labeled myself and [00:42:00] identified as someone who could never eat just one or two cookies or have just one or two slices of pizza, or who could eat candy or cake or any of that stuff in the house. Like ever. Like it was like I could never do that. And that was like part of my identity that I believed.
Jordana: And now we. A ridiculous amount of candy in our house. We still have Halloween candy. It's December 7th. We keep all kinds of different desserts around. And it does, like I still sometimes sit there and think about it. I'm like, oh my God, like. . It's, it's amazing. And, and, and I'm so glad like that you shared so much because again, it's just the more examples we hear of like what's possible coming from a place of like people like us where like we never thought it was, I think just helps other people see what's possible for them and know that like no matter what they believe right now that they think they're not capable of.
Jordana: You are like, you are capable of it. You just need like the right support and the right tools and like, and, and [00:43:00] wanting to like change and maybe seeing like that glimmer of like possibility for yourself.
Rhonda: Totally. Yeah. And it's just knowing that there is a better way, and I, I, I'm thankful for Instagram. I know, you know, as people can have sort of their negative think thoughts about Instagram, but I did at one time. But yeah, on my, you know, postpartum journey of healing my body and then, you know, venturing into accounts.
Rhonda: Of people who were anti diet and I had never, honestly, I'd never even considered that that was a thing. I thought it was either you're on a diet. Again, in my world, dieting was eating healthy. Either you're eating healthy or you are gorging and you don't care about your body and you've given up and you've said effort.
Rhonda: You know, it's like my black or white thinking, my all or nothing thinking was very much ingrained in. I didn't recognize that there could be a middle ground when it came to eating. So as soon as I saw examples of that and as soon as, and again, like I think there was fear in me if I did give myself permission that my body would drastically [00:44:00] change.
Rhonda: Not that there's anything wrong with that, but again, it's so ingrained in our society that that's gonna happen. And again, coming from gymnastics background, I always had a fear of weight gain. But truth be told, my body didn't really change. And I remember actually. Commenting on my Instagram. I forget, I, I talked about like thin privilege on my Instagram and someone wrote back saying thin privilege more, more like you worked your butt off to get the body you have.
Rhonda: And I like, you know, made a real, in response to that, basically saying, truth be told, I haven't like, tried to eat healthy and I haven't worked out that hard, quote unquote, in three years. And my body has stayed relatively the same. And so we need to like dispel this myth. That, yeah. Body size is controlled by our eating habits and our workout habits because body size is made up of so many other factors that we don't, we won't even know.
Rhonda: Right. Genetics, like stress levels, like, you know, [00:45:00] access to food, like there's so many layers. That it's not that simple. Right? And we're led to believe it is that simple. And that's why the fitness industry is a multi-billion dollar machine, because people keep going back to these workouts and these diets and they never quote unquote work because that's not how it works.
Rhonda: It's so much more complicated than that. Right.
Jordana: Yes.
Rhonda: yeah, so I think just, yeah, all that to say, you know, just having that, yeah, like freedom to just not be on a diet, but also recognizing. I'm not gonna suddenly drastically gain all this weight if I give myself that permission to listen to my body, because I'm just finding that middle ground of what my body needs.
Rhonda: And if weight gain comes with that, then maybe that's where your body wants to land. And yeah, again, I still, I think my body weight, I don't even weigh myself to be honest, but I think my body weight still fluctuates within like 10 pounds here and there.
Rhonda: Not. Yeah, and that's normal. It's not like, and it's not anything I've done [00:46:00] differently.
Rhonda: I'm not suddenly eating less or more. It's just, that's just normal. And just having peace with that too has been very, very freeing.
Jordana: Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. I, there's. And this gets into like the whole conversation around like before and after pictures and people saying, well, you know, I, this is, this is how I ate and this is the workout I did, and this is what I look like. And then the implication being, if you do this, you will look like that too.
Jordana: And that's just, it doesn't work that way. Like, genetics play a huge role in the size and shape of our bodies where we, how much muscle we're able to gain, where we carry body fat. As do other, you know, You know, conditions which are also sometimes dictated by genetics. I'm like, I have polycystic ovary syndrome, which means I carry a lot of body fat around my stomach and there's also a lot of health issues that are associated with that.
Jordana: So that is something that I, you know, am and do need to be aware of, but I'm never going to be someone who has a six pack, has a tiny, tiny waist. And it took me years, [00:47:00] years, years to accept that. That doesn't mean I throw all my hands and say like, okay, whatever. This is just like what happens. Like, no, I put a lot of work into, you know, the food choices I'm making and exercising and how I take care of myself.
Jordana: But it's sort of like this, this like this tender versus fear, self-compassion, like accepting. The, the size and shape of my body and where my body is going to carry fat and then taking action on the things I can take action on. Right. And being unattached to like the outcome of those things. So yeah, I'm, I'm so glad that you brought that up because again, like it's super important and there's, I think that's like one of the most misleading things out there and especially on like Instagram, is that if you do, you do what I did.
Jordana: You'll look like I.
Rhonda: exactly.
Jordana: it's just, it's just, it's real. Just, it's not even misleading. It's like it's just not true.
Rhonda: Oh, exactly. Yeah. And I think like, you know, you kind of were touching on this, the misconception too is when you are anti diet or you're anti diet culture or, you know, [00:48:00] I, I don't talk about weight loss a ton with my clients because of just my journey that it's a little bit negative in my world. But That then people automatically assume that you don't care about your health.
Rhonda: And I think that's so far from the truth too. Again, if anything, because I'm getting so in tune with my body, I can recognize I'm getting so much better at recognizing like, am I tired right now because I'm tired? Or am I tired because I've been sitting for two hours and my body wants to move a little bit?
Rhonda: And so yeah. So again, it's finding that middle ground, right? It's. We live in such a all or nothing, black or white thinking world that it's, yeah, we think we either are on a diet, we're being so perfect, we're being so strict with our eating and our exercise, or we're doing nothing and we don't care and whatever.
Rhonda: If we gain weight, doesn't matter. But yeah, it's finding that middle ground. And I, I do value taking care of my body and I do try to eat vegetables with all my meals and. I try to move my body a few times a week and I, you know, like there is, yeah, you can still care about your health and still be against dieting.
Rhonda: [00:49:00] I think that's the misconception that's out there too.
Jordana: Yes, I a hundred percent couldn't agree more. And I think that's, I feel like you and I could keep going with this conversation in another two hours. I can just tell but I'm gonna, I'm gonna kinda like draw the line there cause I think it's a perfect ending point and we can always do a part two. And we didn't get a chance to talk much about your professional work, but it is super.
Jordana: Relevant to this. So just if you can just quickly share you know, what your online services are and how people can connect with you.
Rhonda: For sure. Yeah, so I'm a physical therapist, physiotherapist. I work fully, virtually, and I'm also a postpartum fitness coach, so two streams to work with me, either virtual physiotherapy. Or I have a strong at home fitness membership and I am not a nutritionist, but I do, you know, talk about these things with my clients and I refer out to non dieticians all the time.
Rhonda: I'm sending people your way these days to Jordan and yeah, so my sort of focus is on ditching the all or nothing mindset with exercise. That's my love and. Also love [00:50:00] helping women get strong and realize how strong their bodies really are, and just easing back into exercise postpartum, because that is also an area in our society that is not talked about in a, a productive way in the sense of, you see these bounce back narratives, people rushing back into, you know, marathon running CrossFit at like six weeks postpartum.
Rhonda: I'm just about like, let's, you know, honor what our body went through. Let's ease back in let's, you know, look at exercise not just as a way to shrink or change our bodies. How, how else does it serve us? How else does it add value to our lives? Can we focus on those things? And yeah. Can we as busy moms make exercise doable and achievable?
Rhonda: Possible to fit into our lives. Yeah. Without, you know, you know, having that all or nothing, black or white thinking, that's kind of what I focus on with clients.
Jordana: Amazing. Yeah. And, and I think that that will resonate so much with listeners. I have a couple clients right now who [00:51:00] are pregnant postpartum. So I think there's a lot of people out there that Your work would be really helpful for. So can you just, well, I'll put it in the show notes. I'm gonna say, can you share where to connect with you?
Jordana: But it will be in the show notes so that that's really where it's most useful. Anyway thank you so much for coming on Rhonda. This has been awesome. I think a part two may definitely be in order.
Rhonda: Yeah. Thank you so much. I, yeah, always appreciate being able to share my story cuz it is, like you said, it's helpful to hear and know that we're not alone and that was so helpful for me when I was going through my healing journey. Yeah.
Jordana: Awesome. Thanks so much.