episode 260: no, it’s not just you
This week’s episode is basically a Diet Diaries talk show—two women in their mid-late 40s talking about the things you think but are afraid to say out loud.
Tammy Spiewak is back (somatic experiencing practitioner, yoga teacher, life coach… also my actual friend), and we dive straight into two big topics that sound unrelated but are absolutely the same conversation:
1. The insanely underestimated work of feeding your family. Not meal planning in a cute Pinterest way. The actual mental load. The “what are we eating, when am I making it, what do I need from the store, do I have time, will anyone even eat it” loop that runs in the background of your brain.
2. The way injections and “beauty maintenance” have become weirdly casual, like it’s the same thing as ordering a matcha. And what that normalization is doing to women who already feel like their bodies are a constant project. We talk about the pressure to “keep up,” the lie that fixing the outside fixes the inside, and why the discomfort you’re trying to avoid just pops up somewhere else.
This is really an episode about ease. About “good enough.” About how exhausting it is to feel like you’re supposed to have it all figured out while you’re literally just trying to live your life in a body that is allowed to change.
If you’ve ever had the thought, “what are people going to think?” about what’s in your shopping cart, what your stomach looks like, whether your face is aging “too much,” or whether you look like you take care of yourself the right way…this one will hit home. Hard.
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260
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jordana: All right. Welcome back to The Diet Diaries. Um, today's gonna be a super fun and different kind of episode. I have my friend and colleague Tammy Spack here with me. She's actually been on the podcast before. She's a somatic experiencing. Can you hear me okay?
tammy: Yeah,
jordana: Okay. Uh, she's a somatic experiencing practitioner yoga teacher and a life coach, and she was on the podcast a long time ago at this point.
Um, it's been a while. Definitely def we're definitely in the years, not months place. Um, but we and Tammy and I are friends and so we like message and stuff and I, Tammy sent me some messages about some stuff I've posted lately and we started like getting into it and like a good way in a fun way on text and we're like, let's just go and do like a talk show on the podcast because so much of what we were talking about, I think you guys are going to, just checking my microphone, relate to um, hi Tammy.
tammy: Hi. Thanks for having me back.
jordana: Yeah. Part two. Not
tammy: I must have done, [00:01:00] I must have done well the first
jordana: You did? That's right. I'm very selective about who I invite to come back. Um,
tammy: Enough time has passed. Enough. Time has passed.
jordana: so we kind of have like two topics to chat about and the first one was, if you've been following along at all with me on social media or if you know me at all, you know that I hate to cook.
But I very recently have made a decision and a commitment to cook once a week. I have a 13-year-old son and to be honest, like now much more so than when he was little. Food is like a bigger thing and a good way. Like I feeding him is a different thing than it was when he was little. And yes, he's like a human.
He's a man. He's growing at this very rapid rate and he likes, he sound like, he's like maybe a little picky but not really. Um. So I started cooking and the first thing I made was pulled pork and I went to ShopRite to buy the pulled pork. And [00:02:00] we have been trying to buy like better quality organic, humanely raised meat from, and we usually, we actually, we don't, usually we get our meat from ButcherBox, but I decided this like two days before, so I had to go to the store.
So I posted it and I talked about the fact that like, they did not have, this is what they had. They had just like a regular pork butt or pork shoulder, whatever it was. It wasn't organic, it wasn't humanely raised. It was like really cheap. It was like, I think it was like not even $10 for like three and a half pounds of meat, which is really,
tammy: is, that's insane. Yeah.
jordana: Super cheap, right.
tammy: And you bought it.
jordana: And I bought it and I, and I, and I was like, and then I did what I do. So like I posted like a picture saying I was making it. And when I posted the picture, you could see the label of the meat and it, I paused because I'm like. What are people gonna think? This isn't organic, it's not humanly raised, it's not from Whole Foods or from wherever.
And I was like, fuck that. I'm posting it. This is real life. And Tammy responded with like the nicest message and I was like, I feel seen.
tammy: well, I said I think I [00:03:00] was like organic, like who can even afford groceries these days? Like how can we be, I mean, to back it up, I love cooking cook all the time. Also, it's really expensive. Like when I got remarried, I acquired a bonus son. So I've got like three children in the house ages 16 to 19, almost 17 to 20.
My over six foot husband, like I have a, there's a lot of food being consumed and we need a lot of protein. Like I'm on the protein train, so it's like I gotta buy a lot of meat Now also, I do my best to buy humanely raised and, you know, fed the right way. And I get it. And sometimes I gotta buy like a shit ton of x, y, Z meat.
And I'm like, you know what, we're gonna survive. And, and that's okay. And it's, it was like [00:04:00] interesting to me that. It was good that you outed yourself for being like, I wanted to like, take the label off and bring, and it's funny, you almost wanted to pretend that it was like this organic meat. Guess what?
You're making the food at home, which means it's not overly like processed as far as like the obscene amount of sodium in it. Like some of the uh, like tons of extra fats, tons of extra sugar pulled pork from a box or pulled pork that you made. Like it's, it's like this risk benefit thing. Like organic can be great, organic can have problems.
jordana: Mm-hmm.
tammy: My brother works in the produce industry for many years. He's in quality assurance and you know, standards, food standards, food safety. He is like, Tammy bananas are bananas. They're in thick skins. Like, don't go crazy. Like we, you [00:05:00] know, the thing we use to ripen the bananas. Is it's natural. Yes. We put them in a thing and we ripen them to just the right amount.
So the, so the ends are green. Why? Because consumers like them that way. But he is like, don't be fooled by all this
jordana: Yeah. Yeah. It's like, yeah. When I looked at that, I'm like, oh, what are, what are people I really, I felt like, what are people going to think? And like I caught myself doing that and I'm like. No, this is, this is real. And I wanna be, I always am trying to be transparent, but I think also, like, you know, you as, as a, you know, a yoga teacher and you know me as a, you know, coaching in some parts like nutrition, I think there's like this perception of like, oh, well, they must eat like clean and perfect and healthy, and like, that's just not, that's not real.
Like, and I think especially in influencer culture, culture and the influencer era that we we're in, it's, it's making that seem even more like a thing when it's [00:06:00] just, I think a lot of smoke and
tammy: Well, even like,
jordana: Yeah.
tammy: why people thinking we make certain choices because we're a coach or a yoga teacher. Like for me, it's funny because, you know, eventually becoming a somatic experiencing practitioner, and I'm thinking a lot about nervous system regulation and I'm thinking a lot about like ease.
jordana: Mm-hmm.
tammy: Like what can I do to bring more ease into my life, to have more space, to be more present.
And you know what, it's not, it's not obsessing over every little thing I eat. It's not ob upset. It's funny, like I stopped dyeing my hair pre COVID not because I was worried about the chemicals from the dye. Like that's not, and and so I sometimes think it's like, they're like, Tammy's a hippie dippy weirdo.
Like she, no, it was such a pain in the ass. It was so much money. I loved my colorist. I miss her. I still go to the same, you know, same salon. But it's like she [00:07:00] would have me give me the match for in between, because I would've been there every three, four weeks. So I'd be doing, it was so much like mental and physical energy that I just stopped.
And I said, what would it be like? And then it was like my daughter said something along the lines, she swears she didn't say this, but I think she was 10. She was like, you should like embrace your true self. And I swear she said this. And then I'm like, who am I to go, you know, dye my hair every three to four weeks when it, this is how it comes outta my head, by the way.
I mean, they make very nice, like, like I always go like, imagine what it would cost if these were blonde highlights. Imagine. Right. So it's like, it's my wisdom highlights, but it's not point being. It's not because of some, like lofty ideal.
jordana: Right.
tammy: It's because, uh, same thing with like, I don't, and this, [00:08:00] I mean we, we talked about this.
We were gonna talk about this as well. I'm not like on this judging people for what they do to alter themselves physically or inject. If you wanna inject yourself, inject yourself. I have taken the path of like, not, I don't love the ideas of injecting chemicals into my face, but that's not really why I've made the choice.
Mostly it costs a lot. It's not who I am. I don't really wanna remove like my, like I feel like crinkles around my eyes and here this is 'cause I smile a lot.
jordana: Yeah,
tammy: And so it's like maybe a good, like, they're not two different subjects. It's like, why do we do things?
jordana: yeah. No, they're, they're totally related. I, I, and just something you were saying kind of at the beginning of when you were just talking around this idea of ease, right? It's like, it's like, let it be easy. What can you do to let it be easy? Right? And it's like, just to go back to the cooking thing and then we can, you know, totally get into all like the body stuff, um, [00:09:00] is like, so if you, if you're trying to cook and it's like, it has to be organic, it has to be humanly raised.
It has to be non GMO, it has to be all these things. But then, because that gets so arduous and so much work and so expensive, and then. You don't end up like cooking or you don't end up eating the things that you want to be able to eat because of that, and then you end up making choices that actually feel even shittier.
It's like, well, which is what's the better option here? Right?
tammy: you, and you know
jordana: caught up and, and having it be like perfect and clean and healthy and all this stuff, but like, then what happens is most people swing the other way and it's like, okay, well you gotta find like that
tammy: it's too much work.
jordana: Totally. Yes.
tammy: And I think like the thing that came up for me when you were saying that, it's like this Sunday I taught yoga and I had one client who I usually see on Saturday, like I tend to work most days just 'cause I like to. Um, and I was in my office, it was kind of cold, I didn't wanna go home, I didn't have my shopping bags in my [00:10:00] car, but I did have one big aleta bag here and I was like, Ugh, if I go home and I don't stop at Trader Joe's to grab some groceries, I'm not gonna cook for this week.
I need to practice. So I do try to practice what I preach and what I preach is how could, like, you know, along the lines, I don't, I don't coach like food and body image the way you do, but a lot of my clients are dealing with that. So I had just gotten done with a session talking about like food prep. I'm like, I need to come up with a few easy meals.
So I was like, how can I make. You know, I knew, I was like, I'm gonna make a big, I'm cold, I'm gonna make a big pot of lentil soup, a can of lentil soup, has a lot of sodium and other stuff I don't want, I can make a huge pot. It's really inexpensive, it's really easy. Everyone can bring it for lunch, so on and so forth, whatever.
Like I'll do that. Then I need a bunch of chicken and I'm gonna grill the chicken tonight actually. And I'm gonna, and I kind of had a few things. I knew how I was gonna throw a [00:11:00] couple bag salads together. I was like, I have to get it in this bag. I spent $65 and I'm cooking for like three nights. That's all for a family of, for us it's like four or five, depending on days of the week.
So like
jordana: Yeah.
tammy: that saves you, and you know what? Get ready the chicken. It was not organic. I looked at what looks best. I look, I also love to grill marinate and grill chicken tenders. 'cause it's all I have to do is like clip the little one little thing off. I don't have to do a lot of cleaning. I throw it in a Ziploc bag.
Oh my God. A Ziploc. Yes. I use Ziploc bags for that, not for everything. You know, we use reusable paper towels, but like sometimes I use, so I think that's the point. It's like the ease. So guess what we're going to eat Grilled chicken and salad. And then I bought a backup thing of green beans that I can microwave for the second day that we eat the chicken.
jordana: Yes. Yeah, I mean, you mentioned bag salads, like Yeah, bag salads [00:12:00] are like my go-to, and I have, I've had so many clients where we've had conversations around like, you know, I feel guilty because of the plastic, because I'm buying the stuff in the containers. Or, and, and like, and so that's like a values thing that we, that we work through and where pretty much we always end up is that the convenience and the ease ends up being worth it.
Right? There's gonna be discomfort somewhere, right? You either get to have the discomfort in buying the stuff in the plastic, but having it quick and easy and cookable and convenient and being able to eat how you want, or you have the discomfort of buying this, like fresh stuff, having it sit in your fridge and rot because you never do anything with it, and then you end up getting kicked out anyway, right?
So it's like the discomfort's gonna be somewhere and you've gotta figure out like, are you really putting it in a place that's actually benefiting you or are you trying to like, like be good and be the way that people think you're supposed to be about all this stuff, which
tammy: But you can do, you can like meet in the middle. Like I buy large amounts of like in my cabinet because I know what I'm gonna eat for [00:13:00] breakfast. It helps me with both ease and also buying larger quantities and putting 'em into containers. All about a mason jar. So for my breakfast right now, like I'm into oatmeal, yes, I eat carbs, I eat oats.
So I get like my Trader Joe's oats and that's in a big bag. But then, and it has some seeds, but then I have like a mason jar of chia seed that I just refill. I have a mason jar of flax seed. I now have one of like little pepitas, you know the pumpkin seeds. I have like all my jars. I'm a little nerdy. I label them with my old school brother.
P Touch. My kids think I'm insane. Yeah, I like scoop 'em out with my little scoop, but really it's because it's super easy. So I take my oatmeal, one scoop, one scoop, and I put in the microwave. Remember when they thought the microwave was gonna kill us?
jordana: I can't, if you're listening, I just insert a big eye roll
tammy: But like, right. Like when, when it was like, my mom was like, we got this new giant microwave, like back [00:14:00] in the day. She's like, don't stand in front of it. Like I'm like, if we're eating food out of it,
jordana: But there, do you know what's funny now is like, 'cause the phone is listening, people say, it's not like now I will
tammy: well, it's.
jordana: reels about how the radiation from a microwave is terrible for you. I mean, there are a million people out there who will still say like, oh, I never put my food in a microwave.
I only eat out of glass containers and I only eat out of these $600 pots and pans, and I only use this type of cookware. And it's like, okay. Like fine. But it's like that's, you can live you and you can be healthy and you can take care of yourself
tammy: But it's always gonna come and get you because I just said to my husband like, do you wanna get some of the glass Tupperware for like
jordana: Yeah, we have
tammy: know, you and the kids to take for lunch? And he reminded me that we had to like throw a couple of them out. 'cause there was mold like hiding in the reusable top.
And I'm like, right. It's like we know one thing when we're born is that we're gonna die. We wanna do the best we can to support ourselves. [00:15:00] Probably doing less takeout and more home cooking is good, as we know. Shop from the outside of the store. Right. Not as much processed stuff. So, and then you gotta make some choices.
So for me, I think what I said to you is it's like. My berries and my greens. I try to buy organic. I like, you know, it's like I look at like the dirty dozen and my things that have like, you know, orange, I'm not eating an orange peel. I'm not eating a banana peel. I'm not eating the skin of the avocado sometimes.
It depends which is ripe.
jordana: Yeah.
tammy: I pick my bananas. I don't care about the, it's not about the price. 'cause they're pretty low based on what is the right ripeness for me. Same with the avocados. I'm gonna peel the orange anyways, like, and if, if there's ones that look great that are organic, great. And, and by the way, you know, it's important to say that's a privilege to be able to buy that at all.
I, you know, I [00:16:00] taught in a neighborhood in Brooklyn where the kids would complain like, I can't get the fruit because there's bugs on it, but I can get the barrel of sugar water.
jordana: Right, right. Yeah. I mean, like Ben loves strawberries. They're his favorite fruit, and so I,
tammy: buy them organic.
jordana: Well, I actually, I actually don't,
tammy: You don't. Oh, because he goes
jordana: buy them organic. No, I actually don't. Um, because they're extremely expensive, extremely organic strawberries are one of, I think one of the most organic I'll buy, like organic apples sometimes.
Depends. Um, organic strawberries are usually like 9 99 for like a 16 ounce container. Um, so it's like, and that's, he really likes strawberries. So that adds up. That's usually, it's more than twice the price of conventional. Um, and so then it becomes a thing of like, well, I can either buy two or three containers of conventional and he can get lots of fruit and nutrition, or I could buy one of these or not buy any.
And then he's not eating them [00:17:00] at all. Right? So it's like, where's the ob? Obviously I'm always gonna buy the conventional. And I just, you know, I think that we, I just think like that part of it's important to mention where it's like, well. Are you like, what's the, like shooting yourself in the foot or throwing the baby out with the bath water, whatever the
tammy: But, but there, there's always gonna be a catch. 'cause I was just gonna say, you know, sometimes, and then it was, I like, thought I did the thing you did where I took a, i, I sometimes go to Whole Foods and use my Prime app. Also, I'm trying to use Amazon less, more. I know that Whole Foods is, you know, owned by Amazon and if you have the Prime app at Whole Foods, there's some really good organic produce on sale.
And I just go and see what's fresh. So it's like, no matter what you do, someone is not going to like it. But really who's most important is
jordana: You've gotta like it. Exactly, exactly.
tammy: that's the like nice little bow we tie on that very convoluted package.
jordana: I [00:18:00] don't think it's that convoluted. I think what I'm hoping is that we're saying out loud things that people are thinking and feel guilty or ashamed or unsure of, and thinking, am I the only person who's thinking this? Is this okay? And not, we're not giving you permission, we're just sharing our own personal experiences and just like,
tammy: Or if we're giving you permission, great. Like if you've been thinking the same thing and say, okay, if, if these two coaches who you know, who seem to be living to the best of their abilities in a way that feels good to them. I mean, you know, I'm a yogi and I, I like to say I practice a himso, which is nonviolence to oneself and others, but I eat meat.
jordana: Mm-hmm.
tammy: Why? Because I've done everything. I've been vegan, I've been vegetarian for me. Some animal protein, mostly poultry and fish works really well for my body and that's what I've learned. And I didn't feel as well the other [00:19:00] way. So sometimes to be fair, sometimes I sit and think and I say a little prayer like, like in my own, in my own way.
Or I think I thank the animal. But it's, you know, not everyone's gonna be happy with what we do, but we can
jordana: No, no, totally. And there's a lot of ways to interpret a himsa nonviolence, and we don't have to go down like this, like spiritual conversation path, but Look everyone, yeah, everyone, everyone has to choose what and why and how they're eating for themselves. My,
tammy: and how they're eating for themselves.
jordana: yeah. And you know, for me, I, human humans have evolved to eat.
Animal protein. So, you know, like for, that's, that's, anyway, but ev but everyone has to make that choice. There's no right or wrong. As long as you, as long as it's working for you and you feel good and it works for you, great. Right? Everyone's gotta be able to do like [00:20:00] their own thing. Um, but I think that they, the question is like, is it working for you?
How is it working for you? Are, you know, are you like killing yourself over this? Are you like having to just, is it exhausting? Is it draining? Is it sustainable for you? Right? Like, so we say things are working for us because they're, what, they're, what we think we're supposed to do? Or is it truly, truly working for you?
Um, that's like one of my favorite questions to ask. I was actually gonna do a whole podcast or
tammy: What was the que? So the question
jordana: of like, how is that working for you? And
tammy: how is that working for
jordana: asking that to yourself, like, how is this working for me? And really being honest,
tammy: Well, and, and then, and then being willing to, so something I said my last client who left right before you, um, what I said to him was, you know. It was a little bit about present moment awareness and how you feel. And I kind of said, how about the barometer is he likes to ask questions, like I'm gonna have any sort of answer.
Um, and I said, how about this week? You move [00:21:00] towards what feels good and you turn away what from what doesn't feel good.
jordana: Mm-hmm.
tammy: I mean, he wanted a little more than that, but you know, the idea is, is like if something feels good, do it. If something doesn't feel good, if you come home with a piece of meat that is not organic and it doesn't feel right to you and you really wanna make it say, next time I'm gonna buy it a different way.
jordana: Yep, yep.
tammy: all
jordana: Totally. Yeah. And we can keep going, right? 'cause it brings up the whole concept of like, good enough, right?
tammy: Oh, good enough. I mean,
jordana: Most things, there's very few things that feel like all good or all bad. It's like, well, part of it feels really good and part of it feels maybe weird or like vice versa.
And it's like, well, how do you decide then? Um,
tammy: could make ourselves crazy
jordana: totally, yes. Right? That's why I think
tammy: we, I could find all sorts of things that I didn't do good enough today.
jordana: Yeah.
tammy: [00:22:00] And, and, you know, I like today, like I really want to start using these, I really want to start using, um, less plastic. I do, this is just personal and my daughter has been really like climate aware lately, so she keeps sending me things about getting, um, the sheets for the detergent. Now granted we buy the big one and we buy, you know, high efficiency and, and then she's like, you gotta watch out for what's in those little d pods for the dish wa okay. So we're gonna finish these and I have bought those before, but you know, sometimes you go to Costco and you see the big thing on sale and you're like, this one says it's better for the, it's, you know, a lot of greenwashing. So what can you believe? So next time I'm gonna buy the sheets, I told my daughter and my almost 17-year-old daughter is probably gonna hold me to it.
jordana: Yeah.
tammy: [00:23:00] So, okay. If that is important to her. And she, she, and what is important to me is that she's aware of those things.
jordana: yes,
tammy: Then we're gonna go buy some of that reusable stuff. So if you find a place that place in Cranford la Lao, what they closed, there was a place that did like really sustainable. I think there's a place called Sustainable House nearby.
So I
jordana: That's in Summit. Yeah.
tammy: right. But again, when I have the time,
jordana: Well, well.
tammy: in my.
jordana: Exactly right. It's like, do I have to drive 15 minutes to go buy this detergent or can I buy whatever I'm buying at ShopRite? That gets into the convenience thing.
tammy: Well, and then, so right in Amazon, do I need it tomorrow or can I do the more, do I believe them? I don't know. I'm glad they're doing packaging. That's, that's um, you know, paper and I click the thing that says you can put it all in one [00:24:00] package.
jordana: that. Yeah,
tammy: it also makes me really mad and I didn't buy anything for cyber, whatever on, on anyone other than small businesses.
'cause I get mad about billionaires, but that's my own thing.
jordana: I hear
tammy: Like, that's me being mad about, you know, Jeff Bezos versus like the guy that comes to my door to bring the Amazon package. I don't need to put that on anyone else. Is that creating ease for me? Absolutely not.
jordana: Right. But it's, but it's, it's your values. It's important to you. And so that has, that means everything,
tammy: mind. Maybe I feel
jordana: Yeah. And
tammy: I felt great going shopping like on Black Friday up in Northville, New York, near my parents' cabin, and I bought stuff at three small businesses that I'm gonna give to my kids. I felt good about the quality of what I bought. I felt good about, you know, I felt good that I bought from small [00:25:00] businesses,
jordana: Yeah,
tammy: but I, it was easy.
I did not go outta my way. I happened to be in the middle of nowhere. There was nothing to do. So I was able to do it. So that, I mean, there you go. There's, it's all about, I think ease is the, is the through line here. Now. Can we bring ease into this idea of how we look? That's your department. You lead me on this part of the conversation.
Oh.
jordana: Well, it's so funny. It's so funny that you brought up like Jeff Bezos, right? 'cause then immediate, immediately it goes to like, right? Like the patriarchy. And not that he is the patriarchy, right? But
tammy: I could pull out my, my, my fuck the patriarchy mug that one of my clients gave me in the Barbie writing. That
jordana: Yeah. I know. I love that. I saw you posted that. I mean, my thing with all of this is we live under systemic issues that have been around
tammy: Oh,
jordana: probably the course, the existence of
tammy: all of all of recorded history.
jordana: Yes, pretty [00:26:00] much. And so that is real. That is that. And that is truthfully probably never going to change.
And also, and again, a lot of this, I will preface this, yes, A lot of this comes with privilege and luxuries. And there are many women who do not have these privilege and luxury. So let's
tammy: Which is why if you bought stuff on. Friday or Monday and they were discounted. What I always say is, I made the personal choice, 'cause I had the privilege to do so, and if you're waiting for a deal on Amazon to buy a new vacuum cleaner, because that's what you can afford, by all means
jordana: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah,
tammy: No
jordana: totally.
tammy: because that doesn't bring any ease to anyone,
jordana: Right, right. Um, right, so like in the context of like, of the, of the body stuff, right? So this is all coming off of, um, I had done, I can't, I've done a couple of like, pieces of content recently and I can't remember what all of it is [00:27:00] specifically, but talking about like the, the prevalence of people talking about this is what it was.
Their, um, their plastic surgery and injections on social media where it's become like this cool trendy thing for influencers to be like, I love my matcha, I love my Starbucks, I love Botox. Like, it's just like, it's like drinking water, right? It's just so
tammy: It's just, it's, it is, it's so prevalent, I think is the thing that, like for our kids, it's been very, maybe normalized
jordana: Well, I think it's been normalized. I think it's been normalized for, for like our generation, right? So I'm 45. Tammy, you're 48.
tammy: I'm 40, I'm closer to 49. I'm 48.
jordana: Okay. Okay. So we're, yeah, we're of like the same. We're of the
tammy: I'm like, I'm officially still, you know, solidly Gen X.
jordana: Yes. Yes. So like we're of the same generation, right? And it's like social media is not a representation of, of, of, of real life, certainly. But where, where I was going before and then we got like a little bit like on a sidebar, which is [00:28:00] fine. But my, my thing is that we live under like these systems that make us feel like there's, everything's a problem.
Literally everything about our bodies is a problem,
tammy: Oh yeah.
jordana: but we also have autonomy. And to me, what I'm trying to start calling out is that. We are feeding the machine as much as the
tammy: Oh God,
jordana: us. It is not a one
tammy: absolutely, yes.
jordana: it's not a one way thing. We are not being forced to do these things. We are being willing, we are feeding into it, which then makes it feed it back to us.
So it is very much
tammy: important to say, say what it is. And then again, this does get, it gets a little political and you know, people can say to me what they want. I'm very clear in what I believe, and it's actually not like a political stance. Like I feel very independent minded about the fact that capitalism.
Likes to tell us what's wrong with us [00:29:00] and how we can fix it. And if you buy this, do this, then you are gonna be okay. So you talked about good enough capitalism exists as a system because it reminds us that we are never good enough and you will only be good if you buy this outfit, this trend. You will only be good if you are thin, if you are small, if your face is smooth.
If you don't age, if your hair is won't. So if we can just, no, it doesn't mean, you know, I don't think that, I think that we should be a socialist society 'cause people get really freaked out when it's not about that. Right. I, I believe in democracy and, and capitalism really. I think what you're has us, but we also fuel it.
So I was reading, did you, I think you read, um, I had, [00:30:00] we had talked about Sonia, Renee Taylor's, my body is not an apology. I think it's a really, really great piece of work. She talks about, imagine what would happen if every woman today just stopped participating in the beauty industry just for a minute.
How much money is spent on a daily, monthly,
jordana: there would be a systemic economic collapse of our country.
tammy: leaves. This right writer believes that we could collapse the economy. And I think she's probably onto something.
jordana: Yeah. And
tammy: I love the idea. I'm like, I'm all about the resistance, right? But that doesn't mean everyone's gonna do it, nor do we judge people for being influenced by a system.
jordana: Well, yeah. And look, I'm not, I'm not sitting here acting like. I'm not buying into some of this. Of course, I, I color my hair. I had Invisalign, like I buy [00:31:00] makeup and, and I think makeup and clothes are different because I do well makeup, I think straddles clothing. It depends. That's a, a whole kind of separate conversation.
'cause there's creative expression,
tammy: Oh, and that's, and I'm
jordana: with that, right? So if it's not, there's, you know, there's, there's a lot of things that I do and I'm aware, but I think it's about, it's about calling ourselves out. And it's like the whole thing around, well, you know, I've talked about this many times.
Like, well, it makes me happy, makes me more confident. And I'm like, Hmm. But does it really, does it make you really happy in the way that like, spending time with the people you love the most makes you happy? Or that doing an activity that you truly love makes you happy? Or does it make you happy 'cause you fit in
tammy: Well, so the fit, that's interesting because I have really, I've gone like this through the years with like fa let's, let's say fashion. 'cause we all wear clothes, right? As a kid, I'm gonna say really like a kid. Pre-high school. I like to say like middle school, I was [00:32:00] blossom. Like I was wearing weird hats, big crazy earrings.
I kid you not, I had a pair of like gra teel shiny pants, stirrup pants that I wore under a black sheer lace skirt. My mom let me, she thought I was expressive. I had bright red glasses. I looked a little kooky, right? And it's kind of like that's who I am. And it did make me happy until like, let's be. Real, it had to probably do with the idea, the, the cultural idea that I needed, um, a boy to like me, that I needed to be like popular, liked, whatever.
And I started, I actually really changed my fashion around the time of my, um, my first boyfriend, who, it's funny, like I, he was like, you know, captain of the football and, and basketball team, like Jock, like really, like really what my daughter would call like basic. And I thought I was supposed to look a certain way.
So I started like shopping at the [00:33:00] Gap and wearing flannels and dressing a certain way. Mind you, fast forward, right? Like, and, and there was, by the time in and out, I always dipped into like, I have a little quirky fashion sense. Come my forties, I wear whatever the fuck I want. I search on the internet, like multicolored leopard print, cardigan, and I buy it.
I should have worn it today. Like. Why? Because it truly brings me great joy. Like, now do my kids like when I wear some of my weird shit? No, but I've went back to like, and today, let's see, I'm wearing like a very like, you know, just something plain. Sometimes I wear the big, I've gone back to the big earrings.
I've gone, why? Because it is my, it's my expression of who I am.
jordana: Yes.
tammy: So if, if you feel, and, and I don't know, like I actually feel when I stopped dye my hair, like this is who I am. Like I [00:34:00] feel very, it took, it was very hard. I was always like, my hair was always a thing about me. It was like really dark and, and mostly it's like really dark, but I was just going gray right in the front and it, it was hard.
And I was like, you know what? I think this is who I am now. It would feel very strange and not who I am to dye my hair.
jordana: Yeah. Totally. Yeah.
tammy: so I don't know, like, what about you? Maybe this is something to ask you, because I too, I like to wear, I like to do my eyebrows when I, I didn't really put on makeup today, but I like to do my brows.
I usually do mascara. I was teaching yoga this morning. I didn't get into it.
jordana: Mm-hmm.
tammy: I think that enhances things I like about myself. Thank God I never plucked my eyebrows out in the nineties. My mom, my grandmother was like, you have such nice eyebrows, right? So what about you is an expression of who you are? I always compliment you on your nails.
jordana: Yeah, I do. I, I mean,
tammy: I love your nails. And I'm like, I just chop mine off. I [00:35:00] love your nails.
jordana: I do, I love my nails too, and my nails make me happy. I look at my nails probably literally, truly a thousand times a day. And every time I look at them, I love them. But then I'm also in the context of our conversation, I'm like, oh, well long, long, oval nails are like a very like feminine like thing. Like where did that come from?
I honestly don't even know. But I do this not because it's cool or 'cause I think it's how they're supposed to. I do it 'cause I truly love it. I actually don't like sitting there. I go, I only go every four weeks and I sit and it's like an hour and a half and I hate the process of sitting there, but I love the outcome, so it's always worth it to me.
tammy: And you know, I do, I do periodically, like I have good nails made. I I, I actually just cut 'em off because when one breaks I cut 'em off. I love how my nails look done. I, and I'll put crazy colors on 'em
jordana: Yeah, yeah,
tammy: or plain if I am in the mood, but it's an expression thing.
jordana: yeah. I think so. And I think, like I talk a lot about this, like I work from home and some I, you know, on certain days of the week I'm seeing people on [00:36:00] Zoom and certain days of the week I'm literally not seeing anyone. And I might not actually even leave my house except to drive carpool and 75 to 80% of the time, right?
'cause I'm human, I'm still getting dressed because I'm doing it for me. And I think like that, like to kind of like answer your question, it's like, well I do that 'cause it makes me feel good. 'cause I enjoy the process of picking out an outfit. And I'm like, oh, what top looks cute with what pants and what colors do I like?
And what textures do I mix? And so that brings me pleasure and enjoyment and it feels like I'm doing it for me. I'm not doing it to impress someone else.
tammy: Is there anything that you do though that's the opposite that you're starting to realize? Like, I think I do this for others and even like, I think it's like a questioning, right? So it's like I started for me, this is Tammy. This is literally no one else. For a long time before I stopped the hair dye, I kept going like, I kept going like this all the time.
And it [00:37:00] was causing, we were talking about ease. It was causing me like stress. Why? I was worried people were gonna see my roots. I wasn't worried about what I, I kept going, Ugh, can you see them?
jordana: Mm-hmm.
tammy: Like, and then I would try to spray 'em. I'm like, what am I, for me, I was like, what am I doing? Because it's causing me stress.
Is there a way to like eliminate this feeling? I don't know.
jordana: yeah. I, I, I, one of the things I used to do. Right. Was like, I wouldn't wear certain clothes because of my stomach. Right. 'cause what other people were going to think. And I've come a long fucking way with that, especially in like the bathing suit department of things where
tammy: Ooh, this is a good topic. Let's go here. I have stuff to,
jordana: right. Like, you know, if you've listened before or, or to anything, like my, my stomach is like my thing and has been since I was a kid 'cause I've always carried my weight there. Um, and [00:38:00] I spent a decades being like really, really self-conscious about it. It was really was the driver of pretty much all of my disordered eating.
Um, and now like I have just. I'm not trying to change it anymore. And I've learned how to like, not assign so much meaning to it. And so I used to hide. I used to be really consumed with what are people, I mean, especially like that's, I just, I did a post about this like around like, well what's, what's a guy gonna think?
What's a man gonna think? And I will, I will say this, I was at the gym a couple weeks ago and I go to like a, a boutique gym for local people to the garage gym.
tammy: yeah.
jordana: And so it's like, not like a big box gym. And I walked in one morning and I was the only woman. And there were happened to be a lot of people there.
Usually there's only like five or six. There happened to be like maybe 10 or 12 other people. There were all men. I was the only woman. And it was like, oh. This is interesting. And instantly I thought to myself, are they gonna be looking at my body and what are they gonna think of it in instantly? It was like a [00:39:00] subconscious, it was so fast.
But then I was like, I was like, oh my God, that's,
tammy: we live
jordana: right now. So like it's definitely still there. I'm like, are they gonna think that I'm not fit because mine don't have a flat stomach? I mean, this is the stuff that is like lightning fast going through my brain and I just notice it.
I'm like, okay, just chill. I just
tammy: Well, so what have you done differently though? So you're saying you always had that and you mentioned bathing suits, like what have you done differently around that as when you've come to just know this is like a part of my body?
jordana: I mean, it's a lot of stuff. Um, and part of it is actually around food because how you eat and how you feel about your body are like so intertwined that they cannot really be extricated, if that's a word from each other. In. Well, yeah, and like, um, if you're, you're listening, you're not gonna see, but on, like if you're watching, I'm interlacing my fingers, right?
So it's like food on one fingers, one hand body image on the other. They're inextricably linked. Um, so a lot of it was [00:40:00] work around food, but also it's, it was learning how to respond to those thoughts. Like basically what happened at the gym. Like you're, you can't control your feelings and your thoughts.
They are, they're reflexes, they're coming
tammy: Oh yeah.
jordana: What you can control is how you respond to those feelings and
tammy: What you do next?
jordana: con this this, the internal dialogue, what exactly what you do next, how, what you say to yourself that, that is like, that's the space where everything happens. And I learned to stop being an asshole to myself,
tammy: What? Which, right. It's like, isn't it wild how we speak to ourselves in a way that we would not speak to others? And I think that that's really important. What's, it's interesting that you bring up your stomach. So for me, my stomach was never an issue and somehow I swear, I'm like in the 5%, like I really did not have like all these terrible like food body things till 46 [00:41:00] years old.
And I said I'm 48 now because I don't know. 'cause my mother says she did, you know, you talk about your nose job, she altered that when she was a kid. For that reason, she's tiny, four foot eight. So she would like carry weight in a certain way after I was never thin. I was never skinny. I am five foot two, so I'm small.
I, when I'm, I'm curvy like I am, I'm not flat chested. I've got a butt like whatever. When I was younger, like that was fine because my stomach was fine. I was a reasonable size. After I had kids, I got a little thinner lucky people like say, don't reveal. I got, you know, my metabolism shifted. I was nursing and I kind of like dropped this extra weight.
So for years, from the time I was like 35 to 45, I was a very small size. Okay. Just was got used to it [00:42:00] could shop anywhere, lucky me, whatever. But also, you know, even I, I know I've told you before, got compliments like during like the divorce years when I was like too skinny, um, wearing too small of a size and people didn't get that.
I was just stressed. Fast forward, I'm 46 years old. I breathe, I blink and overnight I have gained 10 to 15 pounds and it's all right in the middle, right at my stomach, right at my hips. It has caused me to go up about not, it was funny that I had to shop twice. It was like, oh shit. Like my, I can't close my jeans.
I don't want good for me. I don't wanna be uncomfortable. Not a big deal. I'm a small size, go up a size. Well, within months I had to go up a second size and that was when I was like, this feels like not me. Like this body is an alien that I'm in. And, and you know, we don't have to go into perimenopause and all this, but I don't know what happened.
For the first time ever, I was always a two pair piece, bathing suit wearer. I bought like [00:43:00] multiple one piece bathing suits. Now I like them, but I've also been like doing that work of going back to, I don't, I never had a six pack. I'm a woman. Women have fat on their bodies. Like I taught my daughter that like we we're squishy and, and we've got stuff and that's okay.
Like I went up a couple, like a, a bra size cup at least like that is just what my body is doing right now. And when I had this conversation with, funny enough, both my gynecologist and my doctor, when I mentioned my weight gain, I think they thought that I was gonna ask them for injectables for glp. So they started kind of going, but blah, blah, blah.
I said, no, like I don't want anything. I just thought it was of.
jordana: Yeah, I just wanna have a conversation about
tammy: Like I'm not trying to get and it because that is how prevalent that must be. And both [00:44:00] of them said to me something along the lines of, well, it's good that you're kind of coming to terms with it because you're either going to have 10 more pounds on your body as long as your body want 10, 15 pounds, as long as your body wants it.
Or you're gonna ask me for something to inject because that is what I've been seeing. And I was like, well that's really interesting to me as somebody who coaches predominantly women because there is a, you know, what is yoga Yoga's like being present with what's true for you right now. And what's true for me right now is I like yoga pants because I didn't have to go up a size in the yoga pants.
Like, they just stretch with me. And so what, you know what I did? I got myself a couple of really nice pair of jeans that I like. I, I'm actually between sizes, so I go up so I can stick my hand in it. Thank God comfy pants are back in. 'cause I'm a jeans girl.
jordana: Yeah.
tammy: And I'm a jeans girl. That's a couple sizes bigger now.
jordana: Yeah.
tammy: It's not really upsetting anyone. It, [00:45:00] except for maybe myself.
jordana: well, I think that what you're saying, like brings up like kind of the, part of the crux of the whole thing is like, where's our willingness or capacity to sit in some of the discomfort of this? Like, yeah, it's hard to be in a body that's unfamiliar to gain weight for inexplicable, inexplicable reasons related to.
Totally natural and normal hormonal changes that have been completely problematized by our society. But again, separate conversation. Um, we just want to like fix, fix, fix, fix, fix. Make it go away and make it go away. And make it go away. And it's like people like, ho hold on a second. Like where we have to learn to deal with.
Like if you, I was even thinking about this analogy, and you'll tell me if it holds up, but it's like, like your partner in life, right? There's a lot of shit about your partner that really annoys the shit out of you. Right? And I'm not saying you.
tammy: the
jordana: Same sex, opposite sex. Doesn't matter. There's a lot of shit about them that annoys you and there's a lot of shit about them that you [00:46:00] love. And that's why you are together, right? And you learn to deal with the hard shit that you don't like. Same goes for us. We don't try to fix every single thing about our partner.
If you do, you're never gonna stay together. That's it. Your relationship is over. Same things with our own selves. We have to learn how to sit in uncomfortable stuff. We don't really like, whether it's aspects of our personality, which sometimes are maybe a little bit changeable and, you know, our, our physical appearance.
Because then it's, it's, it's learning how to sit in that discomfort. But then like the, the outcome of that is everything we're fixing is to look like everyone else. And it's like every fucking woman, like no one's going in asking for tummy rolls and like big cheeks or asking, gimme the chicken plans for
tammy: Although they were like, if you look at the paintings from like, you know, a hundred years ago,
jordana: the trend that goes to whatever the
tammy: societal standard. Like, like one day it's heroin chic and one day it's a little bit, you know, different. [00:47:00] And also you've talked about how you don't like the names, but what if I could tell you as a somatic practitioner that I think you hit the nail on the head, and maybe this is like where this all comes together, is that.
Feelings can't be solved.
jordana: Mm-hmm.
tammy: Right? And I've heard this said a lot, um, on other podcasts as well. This is not a new concept because everyone all of a sudden, like it's the trendy thing to talk about feelings and thoughts and how they're different. I'm actually talking about that on my podcast this weekend.
Um, you cannot solve your feelings. You can only feel your feelings. You cannot. So the bandaid is the bandaid, right? The thing that you do and that you take and that you change. It's not gonna make the feeling of, I'm not good enough, I'm inadequate. It's not gonna make that go away. Like, so what I would say is to identify, like, I have this thing that I always, um, use with clients, which is to, um, notice the feeling, [00:48:00] right?
It's three s. Notice the feeling, name the feeling, and then normalize the feeling. I, I left out of that. Feel the feeling like maybe it's like, notice it. Name it or not. I almost wanna change the three Ns are so nice though, but, but that middle one is like, notice the fe, notice what you're feeling, that you're feeling some kind of way.
That's what my coach used to say. Notice you're feeling some kind of way. And then feel that, by the way, if you don't, this is what happens on a somatic level in your nervous system. 'cause we love to talk about the nervous system is you get stuck at this like top of the wave of sensation with a lot adrenaline and a lot of cortisol, which is gonna cause all sorts of health problems and possibly keep weight on you anyways.
But you're gonna be up here, right? But you can't crest and like ride the wave down and the wave gets really big instead of this nice co like you used the word capacity. I like coherence, [00:49:00] capacity ca, spaciousness, spaciousness. Like there's a million words for
jordana: Yep.
tammy: I notice. I have a feeling.
jordana: Mm-hmm.
tammy: Then do I have the space?
Do I have the capacity in my system to sit in my own discomfort, to let that feeling crest and break and come over? And it takes about 90 seconds and I've been saying that for a long time before it was trendy. It takes about 90 seconds to feel a feeling all the way through to where it kind of penalizes down.
That's the word we use in somatic experiencing.
jordana: Mm-hmm.
tammy: It's a lot easier to get comfortable with your feeling like, I'm getting comfortable. I've named my belly Perry, she's like part of my life. And now the, now the button doesn't press on her. I just got a little bit, you know, bigger waistband and, and you know, and that's it.
And [00:50:00] not for nothing. All the exercise and eating a certain way in the world are not seemingly wanting to do anything different. So I just exercised to feel good.
jordana: Right.
tammy: And then I feel good in my two-piece or my one piece bathing suit, because really nobody cares what a 48-year-old woman looks like on the beach, except maybe her immediate partner and he thinks I look just fine.
So
jordana: Yeah. I mean, it's like, it's
tammy: you know it's
jordana: yes, yes to everything you just said. It's, I'm thinking about like, everything you just kind of just said at the end there around like, you know, she's my belly and I got bigger pants and it's, my brain starts going to like the, the skill of that, right? So it's like you're listening to this and you're like, what, what do I do?
How do I, how do I like do any of this? Right? It's one of the skills. And you just talked about notice the name Normalize, which I love the normalized piece of it. Um, I love, I love three
tammy: like, notice it, name it. It's anxiety. [00:51:00] Oh, it's normal to feel anxious when X, Y, Z. Right.
jordana: Um, right. So that is a tangible, tactile skill that you can take away.
And then also another one is like around this idea of like, fact checking, right? Like things like where we, you look at, you know, I would look at my stomach and be like, Ugh, my stomach is so disgusting. That's an opinion, right? That is a meaning that I am assigning to what
tammy: Oh yeah.
jordana: like, right? So how do we take that opinion and look at, well, what's the fact version?
My stomach rolls, my stomach, um, is jiggly. Right? Those are facts.
tammy: Right. And then you can ask yourself how you feel about it, and then feel it.
jordana: right. It doesn't mean it, this isn't like suddenly gonna make, make you love your body. That's not, first of all, let's be clear, that's not the objective. You don't have to love everything about how your body looks. Just like you don't have to love everything about your partner.
We need to stop making that the benchmark that you have to love everything about how your body looks. I actually think that's like a huge piece of this is [00:52:00] the bar is
tammy: Right, because feelings are not. Only pleasant. I reminded my husband about this
jordana: Yes.
tammy: day. We, we had a conversation. We had had like, like a little fallen out the week or two before, just had come off a great Thanksgiving weekend. We're driving and, 'cause I'm his wife and that's what I do. I brought it up like nothing like Tammy bringing up the hard stuff when things are good.
But I knew that we had the space to talk about it. I knew that he had the space in his system. We talked about it and then I asked that like, annoying question of how did it feel for you to have that conversation. Like, sorry, this is why nobody wants, you know, like people don't wanna hang around me too much.
Um, he, and he said something interesting. He is like, well, yeah, like it didn't feel too good, but it was like the first time he said it in this way, I was very proud of him. Like it didn't feel too good, but I think it was an important conversation to have. I was like. Correct, because [00:53:00] not all feelings are pleasant.
In somatics, I usually say, does that, like when somebody says, I feel blank, I say, well, does that feel pleasant or neutral, or more towards unpleasant?
jordana: Yeah.
tammy: That's just a fact.
jordana: Yeah. It, it's like there was, I read about, I just were, I didn't finish my idea from before about the, the fact checking thing, but,
tammy: Oh,
jordana: um, it's okay. I read about years ago in a blog article and has stayed with me and I've talked about it a million times, the concept of wholeness, that instead of happiness being the goal, wholeness meaning your ability, your capacity to feel all feelings, both positive and negative, and to sit with them, to move through them, to tolerate them, because that's what it is to be
tammy: and without judgment,
jordana: Yes. And like
tammy: the feelings are good. I taught a 6-year-old that yesterday it's okay to feel angry and happy, and embarrassed and sad and joyful.
jordana: yes, yes. All feelings [00:54:00] are helpful and give
tammy: all welcome.
jordana: information. Exactly right. It's like the guest is the roomy guest
tammy: I was. I actually read that to my husband in the car because I told him I was so proud of him feeling all of his feelings.
jordana: Um, but I think, and I think that's what we are. I think, you know, pulling that back into the body image stuff and influencer culture and all this, we're being taught that you don't have to feel your feelings.
You can just fix it and fix it, fix it, fix it. And, but what, what happens, what I know happens is you fix one thing. That feeling just gets redirected to some other feature. And then it's whack-a-mole. It's whack-a-mole until you have fixed yourself to the point where it's like, well, who even are you anymore?
And what's actually going on inside?
tammy: But if you wanna fight the patriarchy,
jordana: Right? Yeah.
tammy: then just then buy into what we're saying because it's always gonna be buy this and it will fix this.
jordana: Yes, yes.
tammy: is where like, you know, Sonia and Nate Taylor are [00:55:00] saying like, what would happen if we just pulled out of the, imagine
jordana: right. And we're always, I feel
tammy: stopped buying beauty
jordana: we're always walking around. We're like. Yay. Feminism. Yay women. Yay girl power. But then it's like left and right. We're just like capitulating to whatever's being fed to us. And it's like the, the,
tammy: and I think it's, it's hard not to, and I
jordana: hard. It's, yes. I'm not like, look, I, I already said
tammy: shining a big light.
jordana: I'm doing it too. Right.
tammy: We all are.
jordana: But we, we need to, what I'm trying to, what we're trying to do is like, you need to call yourself out on it, and you need to look at all the ways in which you're doing it and think about, is this really making me happy?
Is this really aligned with my values? Is this, what is this really doing for me? Or am I just looking for an easy way out because I don't know how to
tammy: that would, would help people, because I do think I will like the kind of, the last thing I will say is there is a pressure with like injections and fillers and how this has become the norm. [00:56:00] Like, I have really deep lines here. My grandfather, I know exactly where it comes from. Like, I was always gonna have this, right?
So I will catch myself in the mirror going like this.
jordana: Yeah,
tammy: Like, what,
jordana: what would I look like?
tammy: what would I look like if this, or like, you know, like, like what would look like if my eyes are a little hooded? What if it was, and you know what, I'm not gonna feel any different about myself. This is like just the container. I come in and
jordana: Yes. I love that. The container I come in.
tammy: and it is me.
It's really important. Like that's why I do like skincare is important to me. Like I've got my own little ritual. I don't have an expensive ritual because I think that. I'm being sold things that I don't need, but like I have a ritual. I do kind of twice a day, but I still do this and I still do this. Why?
Because I go to my dentist and I go to my oral surgeon and there's pictures. But then I say, and do I want to spend this much money [00:57:00] to make the corners of my mouth lift? And the, I've decided for me that the answer is no. And that's the only thing that I can do. And that's for now, right? Like, I don't know, maybe something's gonna change.
I don't think so.
jordana: Nobody can predict the future. Yes. I think well, but what you're doing, and I think what, what we're trying to kind of create space to is to ask yourself these hard questions and to get honest with yourself, and to really, really look about why are you doing this? Is this really making you happy?
When you think about the things in life that
tammy: it will make you temporarily happy. That's where we get the most confused.
jordana: yes, it will make you
tammy: you'll see the result and you will like it because you've been told by society to like it. So that feeling, that dopamine that you get, we're becoming so dopamine driven. That's a, you know what we should talk about another time that society has become completely dopamine driven [00:58:00] as opposed to serotonin and oxytocin driven.
jordana: instant gratification.
tammy: of problems.
jordana: It's like, it's the, it's the instant gratification that our whole, everything just runs on talking about Amazon and everything. How quickly, how quickly can I get this thing, um, right. 'cause dopamine is about like reward and motivation and
tammy: Right. And so it will feel good, but, but in the long, I like to kind of say in the long term, like, what do I want? And maybe that's a good thing. We can, like, I know we can share that this is, this is the bow on this part is that in the long term I want to feel. Healthy and strong. I want to live a long life, but maybe not too long.
I wanna live till I, you know, a long life where I feel good.
jordana: Quality of life.
tammy: feel more pleasant than unpleasant.
jordana: Mm-hmm.
tammy: I want to be able to like, enjoy my family. I want to eat chocolate [00:59:00] every day. 'cause I just do 'cause I like it. Um, and yeah. And I wanna like, you know, do like, do things I love that make me feel good.
But when it comes down to what I really want and I'm curious what you really want, like, it's not dependent on the smoothness of my face or the size of my belly the organic meat in my fridge.
jordana: No, I mean talking you said you wanna eat chocolate. Yeah. I want to eat foods that I love, that tastes good because humans, I'm pretty sure I need to factually back this up. I'm pretty sure that humans are the only, uh, creatures on this earth that eat truly for pleasure, right?
tammy: Like food preference? Yeah.
jordana: not for survival or for nutrition.
And so that, I think is a, a gift. And there's nothing better than eating a truly amazing meal. But, um, I want all the same things that, that you want. And I think, I think I would be [01:00:00] remiss if I didn't say that like. This is not even about, this is not particularly about what I want, but just the bigger context of what we've been talking about.
Like, we know appearances matter. Never gonna sit here and say that appearances don't matter. Appearances matter to me. I think they matter too. They ma that's inherently, like that is part of our biology.
tammy: How one presents themselves.
jordana: And also, there are many ways to impact your appearance, right? You've had impact your appearance, but without, but in a way that makes you feel like you and only
tammy: Somebody can smile and be more appealing than having their arms crossed
jordana: an outfit that you love. You could, you could put on makeup, you could do your hair, you could put on jewelry. Like there's so many, like jewelry and clothing and even hair and makeup. Like if you were to look at like, you know, history, recorded history, like the roles of those,
tammy: like to decorate themselves. I've got like at least four [01:01:00] earrings on that ear
jordana: Tattoos. Right. So many things that you can do. I'm not even sure where I'm going with this, but
tammy: feel satisfied because, I mean, something I'm working on is the idea of what does it mean to feel deeply satisfied with life, like, you know,
jordana: yeah. Like are you doing these things to make you feel more like you? Or are you doing these things to make you feel more like you fit in?
tammy: Yeah.
jordana: Right. And it's like ex explore, exploring that. Right. And that's just, it's not like, you know, it's just, I think it's exploring, it's questioning, it's getting curious about why we're doing the things we're doing and are they making us, are making us feel more like us or less like us.
Like you talked about this before, where you are, like if I went now and colored my hair, it would be this foreign thing.
tammy: I would not be
jordana: wouldn't be you. When I look at myself in the mirror and I see all the places that an injector would say, oh, you could put Botox here and Botox [01:02:00] here, and Botox here, and Botox here.
I literally would be terrified that I would look in the mirror and be like, who the fuck is that? It is a, like a deep seated
tammy: and that's when we see,
jordana: that I have, and I'm like, I would, I can't do that because I would not be, I feel like I would not be me, and that's, that's how I feel. That's how you feel about coloring your hair.
I still color
tammy: you know what, and you know what's funny? On, on the same note, I. I, maybe it's because of who I am and what I do, but I have this thing that it would feel not honest.
jordana: Mm-hmm.
tammy: That's the only thing I can explain. I have this thing about
jordana: know what you mean. Yeah.
tammy: would not feel honest
jordana: Like you're lying to yourself.
tammy: to me, to try to look differently than, than I look.
jordana: I totally know what you
tammy: And I think, and I never said that before, so I think I just thought of that it would feel very out of alignment. Like my insides and the outsides wouldn't match.
jordana: Yes. I totally, I totally, I totally get that. And I think you, we could keep [01:03:00] going forever. We're, we're gonna wrap it up.
tammy: yeah.
jordana: I'm trying to think. There's like some, like, big thing to say, but I don't think there is, like, I, I, I hope that like this is helping whoever's listening, like ask some questions and be willing to get uncomfortable and know that it's okay to feel uncomfortable.
tammy: About, about the organic meat.
jordana: Yes. All the way back to
tammy: how our faces look, about what we're wearing, about how we're contributing to this problem in the first place. Yeah. It's a very general
jordana: yeah. If you're feeling uncomfortable, you're not alone because you've got me and Tammy. So at a minimum, you know, you have me and
tammy: about these things for, and we do once, once every few years on your podcast.
jordana: that's right.
tammy: All right.
jordana: All right, we're gonna wrap it up. Thanks for listening, everyone.
tammy: Thanks for listening. Thanks for having.