episode 185: plus size body pride with lauren chan
I am thrilled to share today’s episode with you featuring plus size model, former fashion editor and clothing designer Lauren Chan.
Lauren was recently featured on the pages of the 60th anniversary Sports Illustrated Swimsuit issue and she’s here talking today about her experience shooting for that, the changes in plus size modeling over her 10 years in the business, how she manages her own body image and so much more.
I discovered Lauren through Sarah Landry of The Birds Papaya when she posted an unposed photo of herself at the end of her SI shoot day—and seeing my own body reflected in her photo was one of the most powerful and significant experiences I’ve had for my own body image.
Here’s a peek at what you’ll hear during our conversation:
How and why we need to stop comparing ourselves to models and influencers
The evolution of plus size modeling and body inclusivity
The specific skills and tools Lauren uses to work on her own thoughts and body image issues
A behind the scenes breakdown of everything that goes into the final image we see in a magazine or on social media and how to not compare your self to what you se
Lauren’s experience of coming out and experiencing the female gaze vs the male gaze
How Lauren navigated her body size and shape as a girl and young adult
What does the word flattering actually mean and should we be using it?
Lauren’s experience with disordered eating and how she has healed from it
This conversation is no question a top 5 moment of my career—I am incredibly grateful to Lauren for honesty and vulnerability. She reminds us that we are never alone in doing this work, that beauty is in bodies of all shapes and all sizes and how to really learn to see and believe that.
-
jordana: Hey everyone, welcome back to the diet diaries. I'm super excited today and admittedly a little bit nervous. Um, I have a really just amazing guest. Um, I'm here with Lauren Chan and she is a size inclusion activist, um, a model, a fashion, a former fashion editor, and was the founder of a clothing brand called Henning.
And I connected with Lauren on social media, right? Like the love hate relationship with social media. And she was, you know, So incredibly generous to respond to me amongst like I'm sure the millions of messages that she gets, um, and to be willing to come on and talk about her experience, um, as a plus size model, a plus size swimsuit model being included and featured in the 60th anniversary issue of Sports Illustrated Swimsuit.
Um, so I'm just, hi Lauren, let me just stop talking and introduce you and kind of like dive in.
lauren: So excited to be here. Thank you for having me. I'm excited for a really, um, dialed in conversation on body image [00:01:00] with you.
jordana: me too. Yes. Yeah. So actually I think it's like a perfect place to start. I don't even think I told you. I found you on a post, um, from Sarah Landry, the bird's papaya, who I now realize that you guys are like friends, which is so cool. I don't know her personally. I've just followed her for years and she's been like a really transformative person for me just in my own body image work.
And she shared the post of you, the photo that you had taken of yourself in the mirror after your shoot day. And I'm like, What is that? And I clicked on it and read your post and read the, the, the caption and then started looking at all of your stuff and I'm like, Oh my God, she's amazing. And that was like how I discovered you.
And I think I like re shared that story and you like sent me like a heart DM. I'm like, Oh my God, like she knows I'm alive. So I'd love to just kind of start there
lauren: least I could do.
jordana: I'd love to start there, like, with that photo that you shared of yourself in the mirror because I saw you and your body and I'm like, that's [00:02:00] me.
Like, I see myself. I'm going to, like, start crying thinking about it. I see myself represented there and this woman is on the pages of Sports Illustrated. Like, and that is such, like, a mind blowing thing. I'd just love to hear more about, like, what kind of brought about you taking that photo and what that was like for you to share that and then maybe we can kind of just go from there.
lauren: Yeah, well, I probably, to be super candid, started taking a photo for my girlfriend
jordana: Awesome.
lauren: then, um, had a moment where I was probably posing and then, you know, after, after posing all day, I mean, not to be like, it's so hard, but, you know, your back muscles get sore and your hip muscles get sore and your calf muscles get sore.
Um, because I hadn't just like stood Like as I do and like let all my muscles go and like had my natural posture. And I think I decided to take a photo of that. And then after seeing the photo. [00:03:00] Realized how for me too special. It was that my body is in the pages of sports illustrated swimsuit, because it doesn't look like the bodies that I had long seen in those pages.
You know, I don't meet the side stand size standard for the beauty ideal or the plus size beauty ideal. And so those things that I model around, like having more weight in the belly and less in the back, um, um, Deserve to be seen too, because they won't be in the selects that the, that I pose properly for, and the team selects, and then retouches and all that good stuff to make that beautiful image that we see in the magazine.
Um, but that's how I really was that day. That's how I showed up. And I just thought it was important to show that, you know, you can, you can pose one way and you can exist another way. And they're both very valid.
jordana: Yes. Yeah. I think you just [00:04:00] mentioned something about like, you know, having weight in the belly and not having like a tush. And I think like what I've seen in plus size modeling is even within that there's like an idealized body,
lauren: Definitely. Definitely.
jordana: smaller waist and carrying more weight in the hips and in the butt and in the thighs.
And that was why it was so powerful for me to see you. Cause I carry my weight in my belly and I have since I was, a teenager. And it's been such a huge source of stress and anxiety and all of that for me. Um, and so like, what has it been like for you to be existing and living in a different body type, even within this, this category of plus size modeling?
How has, what's, what's that been like?
lauren: Well, I'm very proud to be my size and I was always very proud of the plus size model moniker. And when I started 10 years ago, I wore it like a badge of honor. That said, I did not meet the plus size beauty or shape ideal. And so they used to pad me on set. We would Bring padding and kind of, it was like as if you were wearing like a Spanx kind of short thing, and then you would put hip pads in and bomb [00:05:00] pads in, and you could, you could build those up or down.
Um, and that would achieve that ideal shape that the clients were after to fill out the pants sample in the right way, et cetera, et cetera. And so that has. Um, been done away with as far as I know. I have not been asked to patent a number of years. I don't own any, any, any more. Um, but that was, Like the first thing my agents told me to buy was like that and a casting outfit and my book and my cards.
And so we've made progress in that regard. And I do think that what's so beautiful about the progress that we've made in terms of size inclusion in fashion is the diversity amongst folks who are allowed to be plus size. So whether that's, um, your race, your gender, your ability, or your body shape, I think that when you look at the landscape of who's being celebrated, it is definitely more diverse.
Although there's, there's not as many of us as there, there needs to be, you know, it's not just kind of one kind of person anymore.
jordana: Yes. Yeah. [00:06:00] I, I, I feel that like so deeply. And that's like what I mentioned before, like the love hate relationship with social media, like to be able to see women with bodies like mine representing. is really transformative, right? Cause I grew up in, I'm going to be 44 in a couple of weeks. I grew up in the nineties reading teen magazine and 17 and sassy.
And like, there was no one that had a belly. There was no one with love handles, right? There was none of that. And I don't even remember a lot seeing like plus size models, certainly not as a teenager just didn't exist back then.
lauren: I don't know who it would have been if anyone.
jordana: Yeah. So to be able to have access to that now and see that is so, it's so powerful.
And it's like, it's almost, it's shocking to hear that. Like, I guess it's shocking and not shocking at the same time that even within that standard, there was pressure to look a certain way and pressure to change your body. And to see the progress even over 10 years is like a really short period of time.
Um, but it's so, it's why it's so [00:07:00] amazing to be able to have this conversation and share it. Cause like, we don't know that behind the scenes stuff, right? Like, yeah, we know about retouch and we know about that. But I would never in a million years have guessed that you had to wear like padded shorts to fill out.
And have like a more idealized quote,
lauren: Well, that's the thing, right? There's that famous quote. That's like Cindy Crawford says something like she doesn't even wake up looking like Cindy Crawford because it's so true. And the whole industry is designed for us to not think about it that way. The whole industry is like capitalistically designed.
I can get mad talking about it for us to buy it. Just to buy the bullshit. But what really goes into one image is. Let me see if I can like really give you the spiel.
jordana: Yeah. Lay it on me.
lauren: a client would need to take imagery for to sell a product. Okay, so they've made the product. It's likely a sample, which means it's one of one, probably, which means it's either a sample size two, four, or 14, 16.
So then they need to cast a wide net for models that fit within those [00:08:00] sizes. There are so many. Many model options. Okay. Uh, I probably couldn't even give you an estimate. So after looking at all of the people they want to possibly look at, they pick one person, which in and of itself is like enough to be like, it's, it's, why could I compare myself to that one person when there's a whole plethora of people already employed as models, i.
e. Worth quote unquote, representing that, that you might look like. So then that one person, um, is doing all the prep in the world to show up as a good model, you know, like they might be removing hair, they might be, um, you know, hopefully not, but, but dieting or whatnot, and then they show up on that day, um, as prepped as, as they see fit.
And then. They go into a fitting, they tailor that sample to that model, so that it fits even more perfectly. And that model sits in hair and makeup for probably, we're usually budgeted [00:09:00] like three hours, I would say. Um, More if there's more models, it just takes longer. And then you get into your outfit, you get styled.
So then a stylist makes that outfit looks even better by pinning it, printing it, adding accessories, what have you. Um, you go on to set where all the while an entire light lighting team and the photographer has been making the perfect set with the perfect lighting. Lighting is so important in imagery can completely change the way you look.
Um, and then after that, you take. Hundreds of photos, like you shoot all day. And then after that, the team selects the best one or a handful of each product. And then after that, they're retouched.
jordana: And then
lauren: Why on earth should we compare ourselves to that, to that extensive process? It makes no sense.
jordana: it does, it, it logically makes no sense, but [00:10:00] then in like in that split second of looking at the magazine or the post or whatever it is, we, for all the logic goes out the window. And it's like, that's why I think on one of the, the pictures that you shared, and I don't know if it was one that was in the magazine or if it was like a B roll that you shared where you were like, I would never have posed in this way.
I guess it's the way your belly kind of looked and having some like rolls and folds. And you were like, I would never have posed this way previously. I'm so glad that like, I'm able to show this part of my body, which it's like, just again, like seeing that representation and it's like remembering to, I'm like losing my words, but not to compare yourself, but also to see someone who looks like you.
And in that split second, like, It takes a lot of work to sit with that and say, okay, I know I logically I know what this woman has been through all day and like this is this is her job and this is like there's all these pieces to it and saying, I'm okay as I am [00:11:00] and that's why you kind of sharing that photo and saying it took a lot for me to be in this position is like such a good reminder of like that piece of it as well like not comparing and then also finding like that acceptance of where I am right now.
lauren: on us to do the mental work. To undo what a trillion dollar industry wants us to behave like. And it's all on each of us individually. It's all on whether we have the capacity for mental health, the time in the day, and it's up to us to do every single time we see an image. I wish I knew the stats still, or I wish there was data.
I remember it from years ago, but how many, um, images. Or advertising we see per day. It's like astounding. It's
jordana: Yeah,
lauren: So, you know, we often, we like really kind of don't stand a chance and that's why it's so important, like for us to talk about it and to just like have a moment of reality, because if one out of a hundred times you have the [00:12:00] wherewithal to be like, Hey, I shouldn't be tricked by this.
That's pretty damn good. And you know, I want it to make us all feel, feel better to have more information and just be like armed with, with that,
jordana: And I think that's why that picture you shared of yourself in the bathroom mirror was so powerful because it did just that. It was like,
lauren: I just wanted to break the illusion. Know what I mean?
jordana: yes. Because we, again, again, in that split second, you forget, you don't realize, and you're comparing your day to day life that any of those, the time, the money, the resources, the expertise, you're comparing your day to day life with that.
And it's just, it's literally like. I mean, pardon the cliche, it's like comparing like apples to oranges, completely not realistic or relevant. So how do you like, how do you deal with that? Right? You mentioned like mental health. How do, how do you as a woman, as a plus size woman, as someone in the LGBTQ plus community, how do you manage all of that [00:13:00] emotionally and mentally for yourself?
lauren: That's such a good question. I just had a flashback to taking that picture. And I remember after I teared up a little and I said like, thank you to my body. So gratitude, like I do a lot of work in therapy about gratitude and like taking care of my inner child and, and, and speaking from the point of view of my higher self and all that stuff.
And in that moment, I just like wanted to give younger me a hug for all the hate Towards my body that I have had like now I'm getting emotional because it was so unnecessary Like, like from that moment to look at where I was standing and to be looking at the shape that I was looking at in the mirror and to kind of to have the foresight that that's what people would have resonated with and Wanted to see the most I just had this like moment of gratitude.
So definitely that I definitely go to therapy. I definitely Talk to friends. I and like I said to I arm myself with as much information as possible For me, it's like [00:14:00] the more I know, the less power that, um, systems have over me.
jordana: Yes. Mhm.
lauren: And then too, like I, I use social media, like you were saying as well, it's like a love hate thing, right?
I use it. I really try not to let my algorithm own me. So I follow diverse people. I mute or unfollow people who make me feel like hell, like even if I work with them or they're my friends, it's like no shade to them whatsoever. But I, Can't take it. So what am I, what am I using my own phone for? Right? Like, if not myself and it's my own space that I get to curate.
Um, and speaking of which I also did want to mention because you, um, called out that, that, um, story I had written about, um, you know, posing so that you can see the, the, the more, um, heavy or chubby or fat parts of my body. I. Saw a post by a creator and I, I'd like to [00:15:00] tell them, tell you their name later so you can put it in the show notes.
Cause it's escaping me and I was trying not to be distracted and I don't have my phone beside me. Um, but I tagged them at the time and they, and like a feed post years ago, and I've never forgotten it said that fat bodies are art too.
jordana: Mhm.
lauren: And. It really stuck with me because we constantly see inspiration images of thinner bodies.
And like when I show up to work and there's a mood board on the wall and of all the poses they want you to do. And then the photographer tells you to do these poses and their poses that look good or work with the garment when the model is 10 sizes smaller than you, you know, um, and then all this thing happens where we become above, Uh, a size 12 and all the posing is meant to minimize and hide and flatter and hourglass and cinch and snatch.
And, and I mean, there's so many words [00:16:00] for it, which
jordana: that word, snatched. Oh my God, snatch is the worst word ever.
lauren: The body and you really get used to that. And that's what I have long been doing to do my job. Um, and that post really changed my mind. It said something to the effect of use fat bodies to create art that other smaller bodies can't.
Right. Like in the inverse of that example, I just gave, you know, there are things that are beautiful bodies can do that smaller bodies can't. And it's not to be, um, to take away from them. It's just a difference. And, and why aren't we celebrating our difference? I thought we were over putting ourselves down for our differences.
And so with that in mind, I was able to kind of get to the space mentally this year, where I posed in some of the ways that I knew that I were actually making my belly look bigger, or, you know, that weren't quote unquote flattering. And those are some of the best images.
jordana: Because you were like truly being you, right? I think there was like [00:17:00] that, I'm fully embodying like who I am and this is me. This isn't like an image of trying to manipulate my body and make me look like something that I'm not. What you
lauren: just something that like is very, something that I'm not that like the beauty ideal specifically told me it should be. Cause I do think it's fun to like, And so not like meaning to correct you. It just like, love, like playing with this idea with you. Like you can be something you're not, but you can be a multitude of things, right?
Like I can make myself look bigger in certain areas. And hell I do that when I turn around, cause I want my bum to look bigger. Um, but something that I've really been like noodling on in this space is the male gaze versus the female gaze. And like how I've been feeling in that since I came out and I'm a lot more comfortable in the female gaze, um, because it's a lot less, I don't know, like singular.[00:18:00]
jordana: Meaning like there's more than one visualization or understanding of like what. beautiful or what being attractive is.
lauren: I think most women think that, right? And I think that the male gaze that we like have in the society and the best, the best example is like the movies, right? We see in the movies is one type of person. It's a thin, girl next door pretty white woman who like doesn't know she's beautiful until you take the glasses off.
jordana: Right. Right.
lauren: And like we're laughing because it's, it's true.
jordana: Right.
How has that kind of impacted your work as a model, that shift in, in, you know, in coming out and being in a relationship with a woman and understanding the difference between the male gaze on you and the female gaze on you?
lauren: I think I've been doing more editorial high fashion work, which is really fun. I just had an editorial come up for La Ficelle Hong Kong. [00:19:00] Um, and it's one of my First, I think I did, you know, if I can't, I can't even remember, but if I have done other editorials, it's been like under three in my 10 year career.
So this is a really big deal. And I think it comes from being. Looser and weirder and more creative and like, you know Being inspired by the julia foxes of the world and a little bit less by the you know Movie stars we've always seen as as the beauty
jordana: Yes. Yeah. Um, something you mentioned earlier when you were getting a bit emotional talking about the way you talk to yourself as, you know, as a young girl and, and, you know, having the tools now to look back on that, how, like, what was your struggle with your body like growing up? Like, was it something that was from a very young age?
How did that kind of develop for you over time?
lauren: Um, I was an athlete all the way through college. So I Couldn't have had Like if I really think [00:20:00] about it, it's kind of a split experience. So I have one side of my experience that was basketball and I was a center and I wanted to be like as big and strong as possible. And I was actually kind of a short center.
I'm only five 10 and like the peers that I played within in my high level teams were six four and like two of them went to the WNBA. So that's who I was like in the paint with trying to physically compete with. So it behooved me to be. Big and strong, but also there's another half of my experience where I hated that and I want it to be as small as possible.
And so as much as those two things can kind of exist together, I feel like I have the same experience as every single woman I've ever spoken to, which is we all had disordered eating and hated our bodies and, um, struggled with that. Like every single day. And so, you know, it w it really wasn't until I became a plus size model after [00:21:00] college that I was able to kind of just like, like pull the camera back and be like, wait, I'm going to get paid for this.
I don't know why I wasn't able to do that with basketball, maybe because I never went professional. Um, but then I don't know. Then I like, you know, I was in rooms with like Ashley Graham and Tara Lynn and Crystal Ren and Precious Lee. And I was like, Wow, these are superhuman beauties, supermodels. And, and perhaps it was that that really changed my mind.
But it really wasn't until then that I liked or was proud of being the size that I was.
jordana: Okay. And you mentioned, you know, obviously like all of so many of us, disordered eating and trying to make ourselves smaller. How has like, to the extent that you're comfortable talking about it, what has your relationship with food been like, I guess, before you were a [00:22:00] model and since you've been a model and now your body like is, right, this is, this is your career, this is kind of part of who you are.
I mean, always been part of who you are, but in a different way now.
lauren: I feel like, um, I don't know that I've been asked this question before. It's a good one. Um, I really think about it from like a therapy point of view, you know, like I was raised by, um, immigrant families, grandmothers, parents who I mean, like I was mostly around my Chinese family and they really didn't have a lot.
Um, and so I think, and there were, there were many people in the family when my dad was young, he has many siblings. And I think that if I were to guess, they probably. Um, and I have been eating a lot of junk food. And I have not eaten a way that is very, if I don't eat fast and furious, I don't [00:23:00] get any. And so I think I probably watched that because like, that's just a habit, right.
For them.
jordana: Mm hmm.
lauren: And, and picked that up. So I have really been. Okay. So, and then you combine that this is real time, real time therapy people. And then you combine that with there's good food and there's bad food. And for women, there's like teenage girls, like everything is bad. Cause even. And you've got it all messed up, right?
Cause then you think, oh, avocados are this, this I'm putting myself in my teenage brain, I would think that avocados were bad, even though avocados weren't around all these years ago. I'm aging myself because they're caloric and high fat, but a diet Pepsi would be good and. Because low calorie and, and when I was growing up, you know, probably similar to you, the no fat, no sugar craze was everything you remember that we weren't talking about, um, nutrients and whole food and whatever have you.
So as I've grown up, I [00:24:00] found it really healing to get to know my body from a point of view of what's best for me. I found out that I'm like, probably celiac. So that's something that I now avoid, which in the past, It was, that's just a stark example for me because I remember like saying, oh, I don't like pizza at school when there'd be a pizza party.
Everybody loves pizza. I just was like, I can't have the pizza.
jordana: Because it was bad.
lauren: because it was quote unquote bad. And now I'm in a place with my body where like, it's bad for my body. Cause it hurts me. It hurts me. So I'm going to walk over all the way to Saragena to get the good gluten free pizza once in a while, you know, and that's really growth for me.
And I'm very, um, I just feel more like calm. I feel like there's less of like a
problem to fix when it comes to, or like a problem to be solved every time you sit down and eat something. Right. I don't know. How, what do you, you're okay. So you're about 10 years older than me. How do you, like, I would love to know your [00:25:00] experience of what it was like. And where did you grow up? I'm from outside of Toronto.
jordana: Okay. So, I grew up, um, in the suburbs of New Jersey, mostly. I moved around a lot as a, as a younger kid, but went to middle school and high school in Jersey, live in New Jersey now, um, very close to New York City, um, and I have struggled with, I struggled with disordered eating from the age of around 15, 16, all the way through pretty severely up until about, mm, like six to seven years ago.
Um, and. My relationship with food has drastically changed over the last like, you know, six to seven, eight years as I started to like realize that what I was doing was just unsustainable. I was jumping from one diet to the next, right? Dieting was basically a way of life and eating as little as possible or um, you know, saving up calories, doing different cleanses and this and that.
And you can't, these are the approved foods that you can eat and going to barbecues and parties and like [00:26:00] either not eating or bringing my own food and all these like extreme things. And just living in this constant state of like low level and sometimes high level like misery and, and all because I wanted to change how I looked.
And for me, it's so funny. Like, have you ever watched the show friends?
lauren: A little bit. I'm not a, I'm not like a, uh, I don't know the one where, but go for it.
jordana: Yeah. So I am, we're doing it for the second time now, Ben and I, that's my son. Um, who's 12 or just turned 12. We watched friends last year, like from like at night, it's a show we're watching together. It's like a really nice thing to do together. And I hadn't watched it. And we'll watch like reruns here and they haven't really watched it since it was on basically, whatever, 20 years ago.
And put like the fat Monica stuff aside for a moment in that whole issue. I have always like idolized Jennifer Aniston. And I'm like, why do I do that? And I'm like, oh my god, now I know. Because from the [00:27:00] age of 14 to the age of 24 when Friends was on, I was looking at her and all the jokes that were made about quote, fat Monica, who looked like she was basically a size 14, basically implied that if you look like that, you're miserable.
You'll never get married. No one likes you. You're unhappy. And in order to be happy, you have to look like Jennifer Aniston and Courtney Cox. And so every diet I did, She, her body was always in my brain and I'm like, if I do this, if I can just stick with it this time, if I can just do it, if I can just not eat the cake and not eat the carbs and not do this and just be okay with being hungry, I will look like her.
Like, I really thought that I could. My body, like, I've been basically a size. I was like a size like 10 in high school. I've been like a size 12, 14 basically my entire life. Like I'm just not built like that. And it wasn't until I finally realized and accepted how miserable I was making myself that I'm not going to look like that.
And I don't need to look like that. That things started to shift and [00:28:00] change. Um, And it's such hard work. It's such hard work. And I'm really active on social media and showing my body. And, you know, the work I do for a living is born out of that, right? So I coach women and help them recover from disordered eating and learn.
To your point, like the difference between choosing not to eat pizza in high school because it was bad and realizing that pizza actually makes you feel bad in your body because it's hurting your stomach. Understanding, like, how food makes us feel and how we react to different foods. What foods do we enjoy?
What foods make us full? What foods make us crave things? And using that as a way to figure out what to eat and what works and what feels good. Not following some, like, random list of, like, you can eat this but not that. Like, you can eat, you can't eat, you can only eat green apples, you can't eat carrots.
Like, I've done so many diets with, like, that bullshit. So, figuring that out and, like, really learning and paying attention. And just showing up for myself. I mean, it's so fucking hard and it's still as hard. I do this work for a living now and it's gotten a lot easier, [00:29:00] but between the relationship with food piece and then the body image part, it is showing up every day because to your point, we are surrounded with thousands, millions who even knows how many images of women in certain bodies and remembering that just like there are tall people and short people and people of different skin colors and races and hair colors.
There are an infinite number of body types and what it means to be a human being, um, and remembering that and showing up and taking action on that. So that was like a very long winded answer to your question. Um.
lauren: so funny how when we're, you're in, you're young and you're like so oriented towards being in a smaller body and. If you look back, it's so much energy and time and missed opportunities, et cetera. We don't consider it hard work. Like you just said, like you only consider it hard work when you're doing well for your body, when you're working on your body image and mental health, when you're like [00:30:00] trying to figure out what foods agree with you or whatnot.
Like the, the, It's, it's, it's equally hard, if not harder to be in the former state where you're dieting and you're out of control and you don't know yourself and dah, dah, dah, dah. But for some reason, we just accept that as existence and it's not like extra work on top of our existence. Whereas to be well is extra work, extra money, extra effort, extra bandwidth.
This is so interesting to me.
jordana: It is. And because the, the, the, the first, meaning the way of existing where you're constantly obsessed over it is the norm. It's so normalized, right? Like when you talk to your friends or you read a magazine article or anywhere you are, it's always about losing weight, getting fit, looking toned, getting summer ready.
It's so normalized that to exist without doing that stuff, is the anomaly. [00:31:00] And to your point, back to like the capitalistic society and because it's all driven by like money and people selling you things and quick fixes and instant gratification, which is now heightened even more in the age of social media and online shopping and all of this and having access to way more than our brains are evolved to handle.
Um, but yes, like it's, it's like redefining what It is to, I think, like, live and exist in a human body, and redefining, like, what, I don't know what normal is, but, not even, like, what healthy is, maybe healthy, but what it is to take care of ourselves, I think, right, and that being on a diet, and striving to look a certain way, and to have a six pack or cut arms, That's not taking care of yourself.
That's not really about health. Um, and that's such like a different, it's just like a, it's just a different way of like orienting yourself in the world. Mm hmm. Mm
lauren: every [00:32:00] time, well not every time, because sometimes I forget, but when I have a bad negative thought about my body or the way I look or something to do with that, I ask myself who benefits from me having this thought. It's never me. And it's always some business or person's ideas that get to be upheld that don't agree with me and what I need and what I want.
jordana: Mm hmm.
lauren: always diet industry or this product or this like government, if we're talking about like, you know, poisonous foods or whatever, or the patriarchy and the men that get to thrive within that. It's the answer to my negative thoughts, to the question of who benefits from my negative thoughts is never me.
jordana: I so appreciate you saying that and that like you still have those negative thoughts, right? You're still working on that because I think people look
lauren: We always will be. It's, it's like, the odds are so incredibly stacked against us.
jordana: Yes. Yeah. [00:33:00] I think there's so much compare. We compare ourselves so much to other women. Right. And we always think, well, if I just looked like her, my life would be better.
I'd be happier. People would like me better. Everything would be better. And. The reality is that everyone, every woman pretty much at every size is doing that, whether they're in a bigger body or a smaller body. But I, especially like when someone sees you, you're like on the, on the pages of Sports Illustrated in a bathing suit, people are going to think, Oh, she's got it all figured out.
She's good. She's like completely accepted herself and never has to think about this and never has to do work. And I wish that I could be like that. And it's like, no, you still have to do the work. You still have to show up. The thoughts are still there. I still have to do the work to respond to them.
lauren: I mean, I think that I'm trying to be as healed as possible, and vulnerability certainly helps that. Like, posting that image that you saw and loved helps me feel better too. And so, [00:34:00] yeah. I mean, I just am really proud of myself and proud of you and proud of everybody who like was listening to this because you've come here to do that and you've lasted 34 minutes and 10 seconds for putting that effort in because it does it, you can get, you can get better will never be perfect, but you can get better.
Yeah, for sure. You know, one thing that you mentioned is the word health and I, and I, I don't talk a lot about health. I'm not in any way a medical expert on fashion. I'm a fashion expert. And I talk about my own mental health and my own body image. However, when I get posted on the sports illustrated channels, um, like when they post images of me and it's open to their audience, um, a lot of.
The folks who are trolling and commenting and say negative things, say health based things, like it's not healthy to promote this. You're going to have a heart attack, [00:35:00] blah, blah, blah, stuff like that. And I really am just, this just happened this week. And I'm, I I I'm mind blown by the fact that. I'm going to try not to be harsh here.
These people are not intelligent enough. to consider that health does not have anything to do with what I look like in a picture or what they look like in a picture or what a size zero model looks like in a picture. There are Tons of unhealthy things you could be doing to be the size that these exact people would deem healthy.
Um, and I wrote back to one of them who, who, who told me to play sports or something. And, and I said, uh, yeah, I, I do. I'm a college scholarship basketball athlete and, um, Provincial Provincial and national team member, and she went, Fair enough. So, you know, it's just so interesting to me that that that wasn't considered that to look at [00:36:00] someone you could think that they would play a sport or be healthy or whatnot.
And as an aside to that, we don't have to be healthy as people in bigger bodies. To have respect or value I can be unhealthy and I can scream from the rooftops that I enjoy being unhealthy or that maybe I'm too depressed at the time to put effort towards being healthy and you know what? That doesn't make me or anyone else in that position less worthy of respect from other people.
jordana: Yes. There's so much morality assigned to health and our definition of health. Um, And, like, how that kind of, again, orients us in the world, um, because, again, and then it brings up the conversation of, of resources, right, and privilege, and communities, and race, and gender, and sexual orientation, and all of these things that impact many aspects of our health, and when people make, and I saw you [00:37:00] reposted a
lauren: Because at some point they're just hilarious and I have to come for them,
jordana: I mean, like, the ignorance of people, it's just, It's like, I mean, I don't, I mean, the state of our
lauren: It's right It's kind of
jordana: so.
lauren: makes you speechless and mind blown that we're still in different part and then like I really really pull the camera back and I take my heat out of it and I take my Humor out of it and I and I and I really think wow we're we're in really different places as a Country and community depending on where you live and what media you consume.
Um, and I don't know, you kind of forget. This is what I mean by saying this only happens when my images are posted outside of my own echo chamber, outside of when people like Sarah Nicole posts an image of me and I find you through it and now we're having conversation outside of that. And on a totally different side of the internet, you know, we're experiencing different realities, really.
jordana: Oh, yeah. A hundred percent. And because, like, people choose what they want to expose themselves to, and it's, it does [00:38:00] become like an echo chamber of sorts, where people are like, And then it just continues to reinforce those beliefs and then we get stuck in these, these really polarized, extreme opposite places and people are not willing to educate themselves, have a rational conversation, listen, right, just listen, um,
lauren: to stand up for the trolls a little bit and say that like, I actually don't think people choose to a lot of the degree. I think that they are born into places where either religion or something archaic is in charge of the way that, you know, they're raised and what they think. And, um, and then I think that algorithms too are really terrifying.
I think that you, you have to make the decision to choose. And that's when you'll, you know, and if you choose shitty stuff and, and I'm going to think you're a shitty person, then like hats off to you. Uh, and maybe I won't stand up for you, but I do think that it's a little, it's, it's getting scary. Like [00:39:00] how passive people can be, like how passively people can be convinced of, um, an ideology.
jordana: Yes. I mean, yeah, again, like that's, that's like the love hate relationship with social media on like a more macro level, right, of how,
lauren: like, let's not pull that thread. Cause we'll just like, we'll just crumble.
jordana: I know we could go there. Here's here's a thread I'd like to pull. Um,
lauren: Good pivot.
jordana: a word that you mentioned earlier and a word that I have a very tough relationship with, which is the word flattering
lauren: Mm hmm.
jordana: in right.
I did like a like a solo podcast episode about this like a month or so ago talking about it because to me flattering is always about being smaller, being more idealized, right? Oh, where these genes they're flattering to you. This lighting is flattering to you. So I'd love to hear about like, okay. Like, what does that word mean to you?
How does it show up in your work? How do you think about it?
lauren: Yeah. I wrote something about this in a print issue of Glamour meant almost 10 years ago [00:40:00] now. Um, and I remember being surprised that it ran in print and it was, it was, um, I mean, as an editor in house there, you pitch so much stuff and, um, The print pages are so few and far between that it's kind of like hard to get an idea all the way to fruition in print and they printed it and I just remember the outpouring of response from readers.
Um, this is when I was starting to kind of like build my army of like minded people who wanted to heal their body image, um, was incredible. They were, I mean, I hadn't really. Articulated it before. I hadn't really talked about it before. I did just see this like response of community, um, to bucking the word flattering was amazing and just like a really great memory for me.
Cause I went, Oh, great. I'm not alone here. Um, yeah, I mean, flattering clothes. Clothes are not supposed to, in essence, be made to make you [00:41:00] flattering. If you feel good in flattering clothes, go for it. But it shouldn't ever be the only reason that you're doing something. You know, like clothes and fashion are for self expression, are for art, are for discovery, are for function, are for, you know, to be used in a utilitarian purpose.
Um, And flattery, I don't feel like, should be among the top five reasons that we get dressed. But unfortunately, as women, it's the number one reason pumped to us from the media all the time. Um, and yes, it always means smaller. It always means either smaller or more hourglass. Um, and it means, like, palatable for the beauty ideal, the male gaze.
jordana: male ga Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes I think that I'm like over analyzing and like
lauren: No, you're not at all.
jordana: I'm not. Thank you for validating that. I
lauren: And even if like, Oh, sorry. Go
jordana: No, no, go ahead. Yes.
lauren: I was just going to say, even when I want to feel like super sexy. And sometimes like I do play into that hourglass moment or show [00:42:00] a lot of skin or what have you. Um, I really try not to use the word flattering. I really try to say, Or type, I guess, whatever I really mean. Because if flattering means smaller, well, I didn't try to make myself smaller by putting a corset on. I meant to have my boobs at my chin. So let me be that, you know, like, let me just be real about it. I didn't care what size the corset was. What I wanted was the boobs at the chin.
jordana: yes. Yeah.
lauren: that one moment of fun and self expression.
Again, it's like, I really, I really challenge us all to be thinking about the way that we get dressed as a form of self expression with no good or bad rules. Um, whether that's from like the, the morality standpoint of like, you know, you guys have to be body positive or the standpoint of what is acceptable to us.
Like, you know, you can't buy based on culture, like don't wear stripes if da, da, da, da, [00:43:00] da,
jordana: Right, right.
lauren: It should be our fun. It really should.
jordana: Yes. Yeah. I, I follow a lot of stylists online. Um. And in some ways it's been helpful in some ways it's been like harmful and I'm trying to like figure that out
lauren: Interesting. Harmful how? Just because they show mostly straight sized people wearing
jordana: so yes, and I do make an effort. Yeah, I mean, I definitely make an effort and follow, um, stylists, influencers, women in bodies that look like mine in bodies that are bigger than mine. Um, there are also stylists that I follow in bodies that are a size zero. I've gotten pretty good. It's not even so much like looking at women in those bodies because I've gotten really good at knowing that what something looks like on her, it's not going to look like that on me.
It's more about when they use that language. I find that word to be very triggering. And I'm like, why are you always saying that? Why are you always making it about flattering? Or like, there's, you [00:44:00] know, a stylist who will be like, these These four tops are good for bodies like this, these pants, these shorts are good for bodies like this, or the whole thing like, I'm too short to wear this, I have a long torso so I can't wear X, Y, Z, and I'm like, What does that even mean?
Who says who? Like, is that like a rule? Is that like two plus two is four? Like, it's not a fact. It's like all this made up stuff. And I get very like, you know, I have a belly, right? And I'm wearing a belt today. I used to like be, I used to not wear belts. Cause I'm like, Oh, they accentuate my waist and my rolls hangover.
I'm like, I fucking love this belt. I'm going to wear this belt. Like,
lauren: Yeah.
jordana: so it's more about like, Not letting those like, well, bodies like this should wear this kind of thing. It's that's where I start to get like, Mm, that's, I can't, I can't reconcile that.
lauren: Yeah. As you're, like, someone who's quite endeared to you, I would say, like, I just think you should unfollow them.
jordana: I [00:45:00] know.
lauren: You got really, like, that was a whole, you
jordana: I got really activated.
lauren: No, I, but I mean, not in a bad way. It's good. It's a clue, right? Um, yeah. You don't need that. You can, like, see how to buy stuff elsewhere.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
jordana: no, you're totally right. And I, I'm
lauren: Four tops for this body is very 10 years ago. That's, that's, that's surprising.
jordana: Yeah. Yeah. Um, is there anything else that you like, uh, anything like we kind of didn't cover that you think would be helpful to share any skills or tips or just anything that you're like, Oh, I really love to talk about this.
lauren: I mean, I feel like we, as I anticipated, we got through a lot of the good nuggets. I, I'll reiterate, um, if, if and when you have negative thoughts about the way you look in any capacity, um, Take a second to ask yourself who benefits from you having that thought. I guarantee the answer will never be you. It will always be [00:46:00] a business or an ideology under the patriarchy.
Um, you know, not to be dramatic, but it's
jordana: totally right. Yep.
lauren: And I think just having a second to break that thought and kind of Honestly, like, figuratively, like, shake yourself out of it, um, has at least been really helpful to me.
jordana: No, I, I so appreciate that personally. And for everyone, like the work I do is all about skills. So to offer that up as something really specific and tangible that people can use. Yeah. immediately in the moment and practice that and get more used to doing that is incredibly helpful and like can be really, I think, transformative.
lauren: Yeah. A few other things that are like quick sound bites like that, like our poodle theory, which is like just the quick recognized rec, oh my gosh. Like realization . Now I'm losing my words. I'm thinking about dogs. So I got all distracted poodle theory, which is that like, um, all types of dogs [00:47:00] are dogs and there are so many breeds that look so vastly different.
And the winning English bulldog at West, whatever the dog show
jordana: Westminster. Yeah.
lauren: So it's going to look very different from the Afghan hound. And if we apply that to people, then how does the same thing possibly not exist?
jordana: Yes.
lauren: And then my third kind of like shake myself out of it. One liner is that just the fact alone that the beauty ideal changes every three years, five years, 10 years, what, what have you from wave to super curvy, um, and back again, which we're currently in the midst of should prove to you that it is.
Not absolute. It is subjective. Someone or some set of people, companies, ideologies are setting that ideal. And you don't have to believe it. Yeah.
jordana: Yeah. And I love everything that you just mentioned is all like fact based, right? Like
lauren: Yes. Indisputable.
jordana: yep. It's like stripping [00:48:00] away the emotion and the subjectivity and being looking at like, what's actually happening here, right? Who's benefiting from this? Who's not? I think about the dog analogy.
That's so funny you mention that. I, I do that. I think about that. Like, this is like a factual, objective way of looking at things and it helps kind of, it grounds us. And it helps us kind of get out of like the crazy spiral of the stories we get in our head and be like, okay, this is reality. This is what's happening.
Um, so I love all of those. Those are super helpful. I'm going to keep practicing them. Um, and I know that people listening will, will be really appreciative of those.
lauren: I hope so. Thanks for having me. This was awesome.
jordana: thank you so much. I'm so grateful and so excited to be able to share this um, with my community.
lauren: Oh, same. Everybody follow me at L C C H A N L C Chan. And we'll keep, I'll keep posting pictures of my naked belly for you.
jordana: do it, do it. Yeah, and I'll tag you obviously in the show notes so it's easier for people to find and on Instagram and all the places so people will be able to [00:49:00] connect really easily.
lauren: I'm so excited. Yeah.
jordana: Me too.