episode 224: what if everything you believed about running was wrong with meghan gould
What if everything you thought you knew about running—what a runner looks like, why people do it, how it relates back to food and how you feel about your body—was wrong?
In this episode, I’m joined by my friend and colleague Meghan Gould, an ultra running coach who helps women train for their first 50K (yes, that’s 31+ miles, and no, it’s not as wild as it sounds... or maybe it is, but not in the way you think). Meghan shares her journey from post-college burnout and chronic pain to coaching women through massive physical feats—not to lose weight, but to expand what they believe is possible.
We talk about:
The surprising (and deeply inclusive) culture of ultra running
How running can heal your relationship with carbs (hi, Sour Patch Kids)
Building confidence by stretching your comfort zone—not punishing your body
Why running can shift how you show up in your life, way beyond the miles
Truthfully, this conversation isn’t really about running—it’s about reconnecting with your body and understanding how how to trust it, fuel it, and see just how far you can go when you stop trying to get smaller and start getting curious instead.
Whether you've never run a mile or you've been running for years, this one will make you think differently about what your body can do—and how good that can feel.
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recording-1_2025-04-08_12-34-11
jordana: [00:00:00] All right. Welcome back everyone. The Diet Diaries. I'm here with a guest today, my friend and colleague, Megan Gould. Megan and I have known each other for a long time. I don't know, many years at this point. Virtually never met in person, which I feel like the norm nowadays more like virtual friends than in person friends.
Um, and Megan is an ultra running coach. And we have spent so much time talking over the years about food and body image and working out. And she also does strength training and mobility and kind of the, a lot of different kind of elements of, of movement. And I've been on her podcast and we've had a lot of conversations and I wanted to have her on to come and talk about running.
An exercise and body image. 'cause I think there's so many stories we have in our heads around what a runner looks like, how running impacts your body, how that connects to body image and all the things that we think will happen from running, but maybe [00:01:00] don't and, and all of that. So, um, thanks for being here.
meghan: Thank you for having me. I'm super excited. Yeah, we've gone back and forth on this topic. I, I feel like there is no end to this and I'm actually really glad that we are doing this recording today. 'cause I just had this, I. I don't know. You know how sometimes, like, you know, you're, you're a coach, you have a podcast.
I'm constantly in this wave of trying to, you know, create content, right? And so I just was having this day, this morning, driving in my car back from the gym and just having this thought about confidence and how that really plays into. Both what you and I do, so I feel like you've caught me on a really good day.
Like this is gonna be like a really good
jordana: I love it. Yes. I know Some days you're like, oh my God, I have to go like do a podcast. What?
meghan: yes. Yes.
jordana: Great. I'm glad that like we just so, so fortuitous. Um, so I [00:02:00] think I'd love to kick off because I think when people hear ultra running, uh, which everyone who listens to this knows that I am, don't even call myself like a runner, let alone an ultra runner. Um, but what I've learned from you and from the women that I've been connected to through you is.
That it's actually so much different than what I thought it was and that we all share the same struggles. And I think as it relates to kind of body image and what we think our bodies can do and our capacity for exercise and movement, um, I'd love to just kind of hear or let people hear a little bit of your background, how you got into this, why you do it, why you coach it, and we'll kind of go from there.
meghan: Yeah, I started out as um, kind of what I think lots of women and girls start out in, you know, middle school and high school playing sports of some capacity. I played soccer, I did gymnastics, I played softball, and I continued to play softball all the way [00:03:00] through college, which was really great. I actually was just thinking about this the other day, like how grounding that was for me to have.
A common theme that I could pull through from, you know, the early stages of my life. But then when I graduated college and you, you know, go out into the quote unquote real world, there isn't really that same through point when it comes to team sports. Like you could play slow pitcher, like beer league softball, but I tried that.
It was not for me. And so then I was kind of. Uh, not anchored to anything and I had done some strength training in the gym, but you know, back in those days it was very self-taught. As a, as a female athlete, we didn't get the same types of coaching, which is crazy to say. And it makes me feel and sound so old.
It's like, oh, as women, we didn't really get that kind of coaching, but it's true, that kind of strength training. Coaching that mentoring, that instruction was really mostly for the guys, [00:04:00] and I joke a lot about how. We as a team put together our own strength workouts and part of it was from like Cosmo and part of the other half of it was from a men's muscle and fitness, and we just cobbled it together.
So it was really funny to watch us do it. So very largely self-taught in the beginning, and that kept going until I, I got to a point where I was strength training and running and working and traveling a lot and. Um, if you, if you listen to my podcast, I tell this story in depth on the very first episode.
So I'll skip the, I'll skip the shenanigans and just give you the quick and dirty version, which is basically, I went out for a run, came back home, I. I was on the floor stretching and my back seized up, and then I was like, oh, okay, maybe I'm like not doing the right stuff, you know? And I was just running to expend energy, quote unquote, be healthy and do all of the [00:05:00] what I thought were the right things.
But it turns out. All those right things weren't the right recipe of things for me. And it landed me in kind of a world of hurt for many, many years with sciatic pain. And then I had like, you know, radiating pain down my arm, into my, into my fingertips. And it kind of, that was the launching point that sent me off on, okay, because I had gone to see many doctors. And they all wanted to do these invasive nerve tests and put me on all of these medications, and I just was sitting in these appointments thinking, I feel like we've skipped a few steps here. I feel like we've really jumped too far down the line and we're not doing our due diligence to back, like nobody asked me any questions.
They were just like, boom, here's okay, we wanna do this nerve testing, we wanna do these, these, uh, muscle relaxers and stuff like that. And I was like, I just feel like there's something else. So basically that just like sent me off on this trajectory to go and, you know, have this like self-discovery journey about like [00:06:00] how I could do stuff better that wasn't so invasive, that didn't require a ton of medicine.
And I'm not saying western medicine is bad by any stretch of the imagination. It just seemed to me like. That was a bridge too far at that moment. So that's how I kind of got to the initial stages of running and movement and strength training and all that fun stuff.
jordana: Got it. I didn't know you played softball in college. Cool. Where'd you go to college?
meghan: Uh, tiny little school up in Burlington, Vermont called St.
Michael's. Yeah.
jordana: Okay. Um, so what brought you from like kind of reevaluating, reevaluating the way you were taking care of your body and using movement, using exercise through this experience of pain to. Running and, and maybe even like less about what brought you there, but what is it about, first of all, I'm gonna ask you to define ultra running, and then after that, what is it about ultra running that you [00:07:00] love?
meghan: Hmm. So ultras are typically defined as anything past a marathon. So a marathon's 26.2 miles, ultras. Typically, the very first race distance is 31.2. That's kind of what we would call a 50 k. That's like your, your intro to ultra running, right? That's the very first thing. Um. And ultras are pre predominantly done on trails off road type of thing, but there, there are more ultras being done on the road.
Now I have a couple clients who have run Road 50 milers, which is mind boggling to me. Like that just sounds like. Not, that's not my version of fun, I should say, but it was a good race for them. So 50 K, 50 miles, a hundred K, which is 62 ish miles. A hundred miles. These are like the intervals, the, the, the race distances.
And then now, like currently as we sit here recording, there's actually a 300 mile race taking place in Arizona. That's to [00:08:00] date. I guess I can't quite say that because there are some other races that are a little bit longer, but that's, uh, there's a 300 mile race. I've run a 200 mile race, so there's lots of, you know, it's everything past a marathon and beyond.
Yeah.
jordana: Um, and do those longer races take place over multiple days, obviously. Okay.
meghan: Yep. Yeah, there the male finisher for the Arizona Monster, the 300 race that, um, just is taking place currently. They have 170 hours to complete the race, which is basically seven. I looked it up seven days and two hours. 'cause I actually have a friend who's doing it right now. Um, and the male finisher three, it's actually 309 miles, but they call it a 300 mile race.
He finished in 89 hours and change, which is. Mind boggling.
jordana: Oh my God. That's insane. Wow.
meghan: Yeah. I think
jordana: blows your mind. It's like what the human body is capable of. Uh, and not, not everyone, which is fine, but just[00:09:00]
meghan: And that's a really good segue actually, 'cause you asked me the other questions like, how, how did I get into this? It was, you know, I, I started out running just like everybody, like most people do, just three miles around the block or you know, a local 5K, 10 k, whatever. My brother actually challenged me to a half marathon when we were both living in Boston at the time.
So we ran the, the Boston Athletic Association Half Marathon just like way back in the day. And he beat me. Um, he was. He's five years younger than me, so we'll chalk it up to to age, but he beat me back then. Um, and, and that just sort of like set me, I was like, oh, okay. So half marathon. It was hard at the time, but it wasn't.
You know, it didn't kill me, so I thought, okay, well maybe I will, you know, living in Boston, the, the apex of running for many people is the Boston Marathon. Uh, I have never run it. I don't really have a desire to run it, partially because I don't consider myself to be a very fast runner, and so to qualify without getting a [00:10:00] charity spot or like a fundraising spot, I'd have to run a three.
40, I think now three hours and 40 minutes. I've, I've not been able to break four hours in a marathon. So I did a few road marathons and just thought, okay, this is fine. It's challenging. I don't love it, but I do like running. And then it was almost this weird experience where I came back to my apartment one day and I had a copy of Runner's World Magazine and it.
Was kind of just crazy because the, the magazine had an article about ultra running and that was just like, oh wait. There, there's this whole other subsection of running that I didn't even know about. It takes place on trails and I had hiked a ton as a kid. So the concept, I actually preferred being in the woods and being on trails to being, to dodging traffic, you know, in Boston trying to run.
And it just opened my eyes to the whole concept of there's this thing. Called ultra running. You can walk, you have snacks. It's just [00:11:00] like very much more my, my speed. And so that's when I just started shifting gears, uh, moved, moved outta Boston for, for other reasons, and then came back to New Hampshire and just had access to more trails.
And I thought, okay, this is a little more my speed. And so that's when I decided to train for and run a 50 K. So that's how I kind of was like testing the waters.
jordana: I love that because it's so funny, I've like never actually heard your whole backstory around this piece of it, but when you're like, you can walk and you have snacks and you're like, that's more my speed. Right? In coaching, we talk so much about values and finding a way to move that there's maybe. Some level of enjoyment.
Right. I've kind of changed my tune a lot where years ago I'd be like, you have to love, you can love everything you do. Like that's just, it's just not like you don't love paying bills, you don't love cooking dinner or things. But we do these things 'cause we have to just like, you have to do certain things to take care of your body, but you also don't want it to be in total misalignment.
Right. So to find something [00:12:00] that was kind of like a version of something you were interested in, I think is so interesting. 'cause we often have like really, I think kind of to your point, black and white. Uh, perceptions around what certain things are, certainly around exercise. Um, so when you're like, you can walk and you can have snacks, it's like, oh, well that sounds really fun,
meghan: Yeah, and it's crazy because it, it's still the same sport. We're still running, but the vibe that you get at a road race versus the vibe that you're gonna get at a ultra trail race is completely different. One appeals to one type of person and there is some crossover for sure. I know lots of people who run road races, who also run trails and ultras, but the vibe at a trail and ultra race is going to be a little more laid back.
Everybody's happy to see you. Um, everyone's invested to a certain extent and everybody else's success. You know, it's not like. Other experiences like I've had at road running races where you will get mowed down if you are in someone's way. And at an, at an ultra, if you trip and [00:13:00] fall, uh, someone's going to be there unless you're completely by yourself to just to, to scoop you up and be like, are you okay?
Can I get you anything? You know what I mean? It's just a completely different, a completely different vibe.
jordana: That's so interesting because hearing the word ultra, running an ultra marathon, you would literally think it was the total opposite. And I quite honestly, like I've gotten to know a little bit more from knowing you and, and, and speaking like in your group and listening and hearing about what the experience is like.
But it's not what you would think you would literally think. It's like even more hardcore than like people who run,
meghan: And there certainly are lots of hardcore people. This gentleman who just finished a 300 mile race in 89 hours, that is bananas to me. I mean, you know, like if I were doing that race, I would come in at 1 69 and 30 minutes, you know what I mean? Like, I would, I'm just, I, I just know how I would function. It just, I'm not fast.
And again, the term fast is relative. It's, you know, it's, it's all relative. But that's just. How I would be. And so [00:14:00] there are certainly elite ultra runners who are much faster, who take it very seriously. They're also exceptional human beings. I'm not, that's not, those two things aren't mutually exclusive.
You can be fast and be an elite and be a, a really nice human being at the same time, so,
jordana: Yes. So I'd love to hear about your relationship with running and kind of your relationship with your body. Um. I have tried to run many times over the years, like become a runner. I remember at one point I was living in the city. I was like 24, 25, and a really good friend of mine, a lot of my friends worked in consulting and were BU building these crazy Excel models for work.
And he built me like this Excel model to like track my running and my mileage and all this and I'm like, this is gonna be the thing that's gonna get me into it. And I just literally hated it. And at the time, and pretty much up until recently when I get kind of hit workouts programmed from my trainer, but.
Anytime I ran it was running will make me lose weight. Running will make me smaller. Running will make [00:15:00] me look like someone who runs running is the answer to my issues with food. Running will take care of whatever I ate the day before or will preempt whatever I'm going to eat. Um, that has always been my relationship with running and so I would love to hear what your relationship has been.
Has it changed over the years between when you were just doing like three miles or a 5K to now when you train for these bigger races, like I would love to get into that.
meghan: Yeah. Uh, well, my relationship with running started out early, you know, in the sports context, which was yes, you run. To play soccer, like that's part of the sport. But, you know, running was punishment, right? We, we don't, they don't call 'em suicides anymore, but like, you know, suicide drills back and forth, back and forth and those types of things and, and running in softball, sprinting the bases, like it was a necessary part of the sport.
But then anything above that was almost like punishment. And I didn't, you know, I didn't really like view it that way, [00:16:00] but I did have some element of what you were describing before about. In and out in terms of calories and food, especially as I got into college and beyond, like gotta balance out the energy in expenditure out type of a thing.
I think the. When I started to run post-college, it was yes, as a, as a caloric expenditure. It was also a way to like process stress and process, you know, living on your own and trying to figure out the world, navigate everything that's going on, um, but stay healthy and, and as well, like have. Some sort of a social outlet too, you know, oh hey, do you wanna go for a run?
That was kind of a, that was kind of a way to bond with some of my coworkers and you know, to make friends and whatnot. And then after I. After I ran, you know, a couple [00:17:00] marathons and I did largely all of my training by myself. I'm as much as I say, it was a way for me to bond with other people. I really like running by myself because it's a low stakes environment.
There's no pressure. Nobody has to go my pace. I don't have to worry about other people, me holding people back, or vice versa. So I really do like the quiet and the alone time. It helps me process. It helps me, you know, 'cause. As you know, if you're working with clients and doing a podcast and trying to come up with content ideas, like sometimes you just need.
A break. Like you have to completely disconnect from people and to, to clear the noise in your head. And that's a real big part of, uh, running for me. Um, there are a lot of people, and I do fall into this category too, that use running and specific, it's very specific as well in ultra running to process like grief and trauma too.
People, you'll, you will find a very, uh, common theme [00:18:00] amongst. I don't wanna say all, but many people who are ultra running, that they've had some sort of trauma, some sort of, you know, major life event that, uh, running has helped them through. And part of the reason I think a lot of us like Ultras is that it gives us an opportunity to go.
Past where we thought our limit was and expand and explore some of that space, you know? So if you've only ever gone a half marathon or a marathon, you're like, okay, well, going back to what I said earlier, I didn't die. So what happens if I go further? Like continuing to push those boundaries and so. That, that has become my relationship with it.
Now, you know, I'm not in danger of winning any races. I'm not even in danger of winning my age group or my category. I'm just in it to see what my personal limits and like what my comfort zone in is. And there's a lot of times where I spend a good [00:19:00] majority of the time outside of my comfort zone.
jordana: And so what, how has that, because you, I'm gonna kind of pull in some things that you and I have talked about, right? Where changes you've had in your body over the years. Um, is there a, your brain or even physically a connection between that and running for you, right? In the way that your body has changed?
Is there, has running impacted that or not? Is that something that you think about or? I guess struggle with in any way.
meghan: I think that running has helped me navigate aging, um, because while I haven't. I haven't ever truly struggled with my weight per se, because I've, I've been roughly the same size and shape. You know, maybe sometimes I'll [00:20:00] have more definition, maybe si sometimes when I'm not running and not lifting and kind of like in a, in, at a low point I'll put on some more weight.
But I've not had a real big fluctuation. I do think that that having running in my life has helped me kind of. Stay, I'm gonna kind of say on the straight and narrow, and I don't mean that in like a good, or like just kind of stay on a good trajectory. And it's a good litmus test for me, you know, that it's kind of like helps me to, to gauge where I'm at.
Um. And again, I do think because it has been really helpful for me to like process life and stress and all, you know, all the stuff that we go through, even though I might take breaks from it, it definitely is one of the things that I consistently come back to because I do, you know, it's definitely challenging, but I do like to push [00:21:00] myself, you know, at my own pace.
Um, but challenge myself in a way that. Is is meaningful to me. Yeah.
jordana: Hmm. So you coach women to their first 50 K, right? That's like your, that's like your thing, right? Which is the 31.5 miles beyond a marathon.
meghan: Yep. Yep.
jordana: What are like with all the women that you've worked with, what are, or are there, I should say maybe. Some of the struggles that women have around this, like in terms of why they're doing it, what they expect out of it, is there a weight loss component?
Right? How does the food piece kind of pull in? Right. Certainly when you're running these distances, there's a certainly a food as fuel element to it. Um,
meghan: Mm-hmm.
jordana: I'm just curious, like what are some of the things that you've noticed or observed in kinda like the population of women that you've worked with?
meghan: Yeah, I [00:22:00] think the, the, the comfort zone, stretching your boundaries is probably the number one reason why women that I see, that I work with come into this sport because they've, they've done a half, they've done a full. They didn't die. They, they're curious, like, um, some of 'em have kind of the same progression that I mentioned earlier about myself, like they've kind of maxed out on the road stuff.
They heard the rumor that like there's this, you know, sister sport where you can run on the trails. There's snacks, you can walk, you know, so like the word is getting out and it just feels like more of their vibe just in the same way as it has been for me. And I think. A lot of it comes down to kind of what I talked about at the very beginning, which is this like confidence piece and kind of exploring who they are as individuals.
Now, I don't have kids, but you know, I think as we, you know, in our twenties, our [00:23:00] thirties and our forties and so on and so forth, we have like. New facets of our identity as we go through. And if, especially if you are a mother and you have kids and you've devoted a lot of time and energy and attention to them, there is a little bit of you that maybe gets lost along the way, and as those kids start to grow up and age up and age out, you're kind of left with some time Now, what do you do at this time?
Oh, I used to love to do this. Maybe it was running. I wanna go back to that, but I can't quite do it in the way that I had done it before. Like maybe I was fast or maybe I was competitive, or maybe I liked it, but I never really got enough time because I was either. You know, pregnant or postpartum, and it didn't really work for me.
Then I had little kids and I couldn't run and manage little kids at the same time enough to build up any consistency where I could do something with that training. Okay, now here's a time when I can start to [00:24:00] do that. Um, and everything in between. I mean, there's lots of different reasons why people come to this sport, but I think a lot of it is.
You know, wanting to challenge themselves. I don't see too much to, to kind of go back to what you were saying earlier about the weight loss component of it. I think at some point or another, most of us who run, have used running in that way. But the tricky part with, and you and I have talked about this a lot, especially inside the group, the tricky part about.
Running and weight loss is that when you up your mileage, you also have to up your food to fuel properly for that. And then when we get into ultra running and long runs and fueling on your long runs, this can be a little bit of a challenge and where you have to do a little bit of work. And I, I also had to do this work because it was a foreign [00:25:00] concept to me that I would.
Eat while I was running. Like the whole snacks was very, was very interesting to me. But then I really had to relearn how to feed myself, when to feed myself in my every day. But then also when we're talking about trying to run longer than, you know, 90 minutes. Okay, now we're gonna need to onboard some carbs.
And if you've got. Old messaging, let's say about carbs, carbs being quote unquote bad. This is where you can start to get some of that conflict. Um, so it's, I think it has been helpful. It's been helpful for me. It's been helpful for a lot of the women that I have worked with to kind of, I'm gonna say like Deprogram, but I don't mean it in any sort of bad way.
It's just like you're, you're rewriting what you've been taught. Right. Going back to, you know, running as, as punishment in your sport. It's almost like. A whole new leaf or new page has been turned over for running because, oh, now it's fun. We do it for enjoyment. Oh, we eat while we [00:26:00] run. We eat lots of carbs.
That's our primary fuel. Like, and it's not bad like nobody's dying because they're ingesting all of these carbs and running all these miles. What the heck? Like it's crazy.
jordana: Yeah. I love that it's like, it's almost like this, what you're talking about is kind of the opposite of most people's experience with running and their kind of perceptions or preconceived notions of what running is, right? Like you've talked so much about like expanding your capacity and testing your limits, which is making me think a lot about strength training.
I think that's the lens through which I have experiences, right? Seeing what your body is capable of, which. When we think about like our bodies we're so used to thinking about like their size and their shape and what they look like and not at all about what they do, and even just like a day-to-day functional level than sort of this bigger, like, you know, I.
Larger physical challenge and sort of more even like, um, like I'll say like existential, but like, what can I [00:27:00] really do? What is my body capable of? I mean, running a 31 mile race is like, is significant. Um, so was running a marathon, so I was running a half marathon. All, all these things are significant, but that is wait, it is, it is a known and established and evidence-based tool that identifying and.
Thinking about and focusing on what your body can do can really help to respond to the focus and the fixation on what our bodies look like. And then it was so interesting. It's just like layering on the food piece, right? Is that right? Again, like I so many people, and I think this is why I wanted to have you on, 'cause I think so many women listening will have run or come to running or think about running as a weight loss mechanism and as a way to burn off calories, earn calories.
So to have this experience in this community, in this like branch of the sport where it actually is an opportunity to rethink what food does for you, how it makes [00:28:00] you feel, how it provides energy, how it allows your body to do what it does is so fucking cool, um, and unexpected. And. It's just, it's awesome and especially 'cause it's around carbs, right?
It's like with strength trading. Yes, carbs play a role, but it's a lot about the protein and people I feel like are so sick of hearing about protein right now. They're like, all right, enough already. I get it. But there's the, the carb thing is, it will always be a thing because it was just so deeply ingrained into us.
So I think this is. So interesting and so valuable. Um, and I'm just so glad to like, have this space, like to talk about this. I think it's gonna be like a big switch flip for people.
meghan: I hope so, two, two things that I wanna say before I forget. 'cause you know, that's a, that's a real problem with me. Um, first when you were talking about body size and shape and, and image and the way we view ourselves, one of the se kind of selling points for me when it came to trails and Ultras was that [00:29:00] I.
You are gonna see so much variety in size, shape, uh, composition, age, you know, just the general demographics of people at an ultra versus a road race. Now, I will say. When I was road running, it was 15 plus years ago. So that sport has also expanded in all of those categories as well. But ultras, I mean, I've been, I've been beat in races by people who are three times my size, three times my age, and I am just like, you know, absolutely.
Like, go for it. You know what I mean? So you can't show up to. Quite honestly any race now, but definitely an ultra and prejudge anybody by how they look because, you know, it's, it's not the cover that matters, uh, to this book. It's all the pa all the pages are the training right, that this person has [00:30:00] done.
Um. So that's thing number one. Thing number two, I think that would probably maybe blow your audience's mind is the, the types of carbs that we are potentially eating, especially during some of these longer races. Um, because, you know, when we talk about trying to fuel yourself as an athlete, and I use that word pretty liberally because.
That's how I think of, that's the mindset that I have tried to adopt for myself because it puts me in a better head space to make good decisions about my training and what I will do and won't do. Like if I think of myself like an athlete, even again, if I'm in no danger of winning anything, I still think I make better decisions when I call myself an athlete and treat myself that way.
So I use that word pretty liberally and I, I've gotten lots of messages from people. Uh, who listen to the podcast or people that I work with who are like, why do you keep calling me an athlete? Because you [00:31:00] are, first of all, you know, so it's kind of a mindset shift for those types of people. So if you're thinking about yourself as an athlete, you're thinking, okay, high quality foods, you know, high quality, this and that.
And then if you were to go to an aid station, which is like. A pit stop along the route of a an ultra, you're gonna see Oreos and m and ms and like nerd gummy clusters and potato chips and PB and J sandwiches. You're gonna, and like coke and ginger ale, you're gonna see lots of quick carbs like, you know, in the form of largely sugar.
And so it's, it blows some people's mind because they think, how is this possible? But there's plenty of people. Who mix it up and do you know, much more high quality food with a, I'll call it low quality, you know, low quality sugar, like simple sugars. Um, they mix it up a little bit. I'm one of those people, but you know, some people do, do just exclusively fuel their runs on those simple sugars, [00:32:00] and it's because that's the quick source that you can.
Onboard and utilize quickly. It's not tons of protein, although we want some of that. It's not a ton of fiber, which is definitely not something that we want while we're out there running. So it's like, it's a mindset shift is like, you know, how are you gonna fuel your sport for the immediate and then, you know, the long term, like the recovery afterwards, all that.
jordana: I think it's, it's, I mean, it's science, right? This is literally how the body takes in and breaks down energy and then utilizes it right at a cellular level, and those. Simple carbs are broken down and they're much more readily accessible. When you have fiber, it slows the whole process down. Right? This is science of how our bodies work, which is we get so wrapped up emotionally and have so many meanings assigned to these foods, right?
Like, I think maybe even one of your groups, someone talked about eating Sour Patch kids,
meghan: Oh yeah,
jordana: Um, yeah, right? Like candy, you said m and ms, right? All that stuff. [00:33:00] And oh, sour Patch. Kids are bad. They're junk food. I binge on those, all these things, but like in. And this is a very specific circumstance, but like your body is using that in a very specific way.
That's how it's meant and need to be used. And if you wanna do this with your body, this is what you have to do. Like if you don't eat that stuff, I mean, I just imagine you'll like fall flat on your face at some point during the run. Like your body will just shut down.
meghan: Yes, absolutely. I mean, there's, you're going to hit that wall, and this is part of the reason why people don't go past whatever distance they're at. So this could even happen before you get to a full marathon. It could happen at a half or even a 5K, 10 K, like if this is. You know, the farthest you've ever gone is the farthest you've ever gone.
So you sort of have to like work with where you're at. And if that 5K takes you an hour, you might be on the verge of needing a little boost in the form of some sort of sports drink or a quick hit, like a couple gummy bears or some, some jelly beans or something like to just get some sugar on board to help you keep going.
And [00:34:00] this is one of those things that. People think that fueling on a run is relegated only for elite athletes or people who are running super long distances. No, like you might be listening to this, struggling to get through a 5K and I wanna encourage you, like, Hey, maybe onboard a little bit of sugar, like have something with you.
Maybe it's a, you know, half a PB and J instead of gummy worms or whatever. But like that might be the thing that helps you click over to the next distance and be able to go, keep going further and further.
jordana: Yeah. I, I love that you said that, right, because it's all relative. It's where people hit that wall based on their, their training capacity and their adaptations, right. Is, is gonna be different. And there's such an opportunity there to see, to be able to look at things more objectively, right? This is what this food is doing for my body in this moment.
And really feeling that, right? Because I imagine once you, if you start to get depleted and then you have that intake of sugar, I imagine that you feel that pretty quickly and you feel like the energy and you're able to keep going that like. That's really [00:35:00] cool to be able to feel your body using what you just put into it in a very immediate way.
And that's such a powerful way to start to break down the, the emotional baggage, for lack of a better term that we have around those foods. Right. And the way we've always eaten them and how we've eaten them. Um, and that's like. It's an, it's an unexpected way to do that, but it's so cool and I think, again, coming from thinking about running and all the things that people think about running, it's, it's almost cool that running is the thing that could potentially help you do that.
meghan: it's like full circle.
jordana: like, what, what? Yeah. It's kind of wild.
meghan: I like it because it has really forced me to rethink the terms good and bad and like really think about, you know, to, to, to take a page outta your book. Like, what's the job of this food? And, you know, like in, you can't see it, it's behind me, but like in my, in my bookshelf behind me. I've got a whole thing [00:36:00] of waffles, like Belgian waffles from Costco that are individually packaged, that I'm super stoked about taking on my next long run because like, that's a really palatable, uh, yummy, like, exciting food that's gonna deliver a lot of carbs for me.
It's gonna be, you know, and so looking for those kinds of things and getting to have things, eat, things that. My old self might've been like, oh, you can't have that. You know? But then flipping the script and being able to say like, oh, looking forward to my long 20 mile run. 'cause look at all the fun food I get to have.
And not only fun food, but like, what's it gonna do for me? Like it's a catch 22, it's going to, I'm gonna get to eat this food and it's gonna help me get my bigger goal, which is longer miles in service of completing that big race that's coming up.
jordana: Right. It's not like I get to have this food because I'm running 20 miles and I'm burning off the calories. I get to have this food because it is fueling me. It's actually allowing me, empowering me, enabling me to do this thing with my [00:37:00] body.
meghan: Yeah.
jordana: Um, and that's like. On the outside it, it might look the same as the old story, but it's a totally different narrative that's
meghan: yes. Um, the other thing I wanna be sure that, you know, circling back to. At the beginning when I said, you caught me on a really good day. 'cause we wanna talk about confidence. I think one of the things that keeps me and keeps a lot of women in this sport is the fact that, you know, when you've been able to do that thing that you have set out to do, so whether it's run a half and like this is irrespective of ultras, like it could be any distance, 5K all the way through 300 miles.
But when you set that goal. To run that race and then you follow through and you do all of the work. You do all the training and you complete it. There's like this tiny little like check in the win column that goes into the back of your brain and it just starts to build that confidence in yourself. [00:38:00] I don't necessarily say.
Self-confidence I think of, I personally think of those two, two things as separate. Like I have a lot of confidence in myself and my abilities. I don't think I necessarily always have self-confidence. It's a little bit of a, I don't know if that dis the distinction makes sense to anybody outside of my brain, but I, every time that I've been able to, you know, set a target, set a goal to complete a race or do something, whether it was a race or whether it was, okay, I'm gonna go out, I'm just gonna use that 20 mile run as an example, right?
Go out and do that. There's like a little tiny check that goes in that win column and now that's like a new. Level, a new threshold that I've set for myself that nobody can take away from me. So it doesn't really matter what you do for work, it doesn't matter. You know how many kids you have if you have kids or whatever, right?
Like doesn't matter. But you're starting to find these ways to put checks in your win [00:39:00] column and build confidence in yourself that maybe you didn't have before as an athlete. Because you weren't somebody who did sports as a kid or you know, dance or anything like that. So you really haven't had the opportunity to move your body in this way and build confidence in yourself and your ability to do this thing.
And that's why I'm such a huge fan of running in general, but also ultras for women because again, it's a sport where you can go as fast or as slow as you want, right? Nobody's, you know, most people when they hear that you run an ultra. Well, I should say lots of people ask like, oh, how fast are you? I'm always like, not at all.
And I'm proud of it. Like, so, you know, giving people permission to like lose speed out of their vocabulary. Um, but they're just, people are just in awe of. People, specifically women who run ultras, because it is so far outside of their own wheelhouse that most often they're [00:40:00] thinking, oh, I wouldn't even drive that far, let alone walk or run that far.
And so, you know, I don't have the stats in front of me, but there are some crazy stats about how small ultra running is in the grand scheme of things. And, um. It's just kind of cool to be part of this, you know, very small, but even when you're in it, you think, oh, everybody does it. And then I have to really like take, remove myself, pull back and think like, oh, actually no, not everybody does this.
It is pretty unique and that's why I think it's, I. Such a great thing for women in general because you can get these wins, bank them, build that confidence in yourself. That oftentimes gives, I've seen it where, you know, doing something like this has given them the confidence to. Get a new job or move over here or ask for more money or leave a bad relationship.
jordana: Yep.
meghan: You know, like, um, do something to [00:41:00] improve some area of their life. And it was because they showed themselves that they could do this thing. So if I can do this, what else can I do?
jordana: Totally. Yes. I think like you're making me think a lot about, um, self-efficacy and self-esteem, right? So self-efficacy is like your, your belief in your ability to do the thing that you want to do or that you say you're going to do. And that's often, like in coaching, that's the thing. It's like, we wanna do these things, but there's the gap between wanting to do them and actually doing them.
meghan: Yep.
jordana: It's about building up that capacity and that evidence to do that thing. And the more you get that evidence and the more likely and the easier it is to keep going 'cause you know that you can do it. And absolutely it has spill over into other parts of our lives and this and this happens anywhere. And the big thing I'm thinking about, like as you're talking.
Is right. We're talking about running specifically ultra running and all the kind of these, these experiences and these benefits in terms of, um, physical ability, what your body can do, and the emotional component, the confidence, the [00:42:00] self-efficacy. But it's like, okay, well maybe, maybe this will get, maybe this will, like, some people go, oh my God, I wanna, I wanna try this.
Right? But there are other areas in which the same thing applies, right? Like for me, I'm kind of thinking about like strength training, right? And I'm a, and I'm not interested in being like a power lifter or anything, but like I go to the gym and I'm like, oh, cool. Like I was able to add on like another plate today, or I did an extra rep, like I'm, I am pushing my body and kind of testing those limits.
Um, or maybe it's in a sport that you play, right? And improving that or being able to play for longer. Or, I'm even thinking about dance classes that I've taken. Like I went to this cardio dance class a couple weeks ago. So much fun. It was basically 50 minutes straight of high intensity cardio dance. And it was so much fun because the music and the steps, and it was great.
But by the end, we ran through the routine like seven or eight times in a row. was like, oh my God, I think I'm [00:43:00] dying. Like is this over yet? But I kept going and I kept doing it 'cause it was so much fun. But I'm like, I'm dancing and I've just like expanded. Kind of the, my body's capacity to do this, right?
There's so many ways, what I'm trying to say, there's so many ways in which to have the experience. You're talking about running and ultra running are one of them, but there's other ways, and I guess I'm hoping that as, as, as folks are listening, that that's the wheels that it gets turning to see having this type of experience and relationship to some form of movements, exercise.
Those things overlap in some ways and not in others. Is so powerful and so transformative in so many ways. Right. Which I'm not gonna summarize 'cause we've talked about them, but that's like, it doesn't have to be running. Could be. It doesn't have to be.
meghan: I think running in particular is that thing for people because you're not relying on any external assistance. It's not a bike, [00:44:00] it's not a pair of skates, it's not skis, it's not any other equipment. It's you and your feet, and so it's kind of very. Raw in that sense and very like primal for people to go out and walk and run for, you know, in the case of that 300 race, like hours and days on end and to do it overnight on no sleep and you know, that's when you start to get into the a hundred milers and, and longer.
So if that's not your jam, please don't let me like dissuade you from trying, you know, ultra running if you are not into staying up all night and, you know, doing crazy overnight headlamp runs, but. I do think, uh, there's a specific draw to running an ultra running for that kind of like primal reason because there's nothing between you and it, like you and it are like one and the same.
jordana: Yes. Yeah. It really is like a very deep, primal connection to your body.
meghan: Mm-hmm.
jordana: Right. And it's just right. It's just, it's just you and your body. [00:45:00] Right, and I think, I mean this gets so, can get like so existential, but Right. It's not about all these other kind of externally driven things. It's about what's inside of you, both physically and mentally, which is I think is, is really cool.
meghan: The mental piece I think is, especially as you start to get into the longer distances and you build that confidence in yourself, your and your abilities to go out and do all the miles, then it becomes, at least for me and for many of the, the people that I have worked with, it becomes less about. The physical aspect, and that's not to say that the physical training isn't important, but it becomes more about, okay, now I wanna get to a place where instead of exploring the physical, I wanna kind of root around up here in my brain and see what the heck is going on up there.
Because more so than I think a lot of other sports and everything is. Obviously relative. There are lots of other sports that I would probably find very challenging and could give me [00:46:00] these same benefits. But to go back to what we were just talking about, about how running is so primal. I think it is the thing because there is no, there's nothing you can blame it on, right?
Like, oh, my bike broke. I'm like, no, you don't have that. Like it's you. So when you, when you rub up against your limit. What do you do? Do you break? Do you quit? Do you, you know, can you talk yourself out of it? And so that's, I feel like the draw, at least for me and, and for many other people that I know to go keep going longer and longer and longer, and to do a 100 and a 200 and a beyond, right?
Because that threshold does get pushed out. The point at which, I'm not saying you physically have a mental break, but the point at which you are. Maybe your spirit starts to break a little and you have to do the work to dig deep, to find the fire, to keep going, and [00:47:00] to assess, is this really my end? Is this my edge?
Or could I keep going? And if I wanna keep going, what do I need to do mentally and physically and emotionally to steer myself in the right direction? And then. Go again. You know? So that's part of the other appeal, the draw for people to do some of these crazy in air quotes, crazy ultra running races.
jordana: And then the way that, that applies and carries over to challenges that we face in life, right? From little mundane stuff that sometimes seems overwhelming to like major life altering things like illness and jobs and moves and, and all of these things like.
meghan: hundred percent.
jordana: How does that help you build up your capacity to tolerate, to deal, to move through with the discomfort that comes with that, and you're, again, that self-efficacy, your belief in your ability to do that, um,
meghan: I think you're so much more able to, I know me personally, I am much more capable of handling. Day-to-day [00:48:00] shenanigans because I now know what hard is. Again, like to go back to what I said earlier, like the longest you've ever run to date is the longest you've ever run. That's the hardest thing potentially that you've done in running, right?
And so that will be your. Upper limit that will be your threshold until you push past it and, and establish a new upper limit, a new threshold. And every time you do that, your tolerance for discomfort. Some people say suffering. I don't choose to use that word 'cause I've actively signed up for this. So I don't feel like I can, can and should use the word suffering when I've checked the box and signed my name and said I wanna do this.
But like. The more you make yourself uncomfortable in some of these other ways, you start to get more comfortable with that annoying email or that neighbor that like,
jordana: Yep.
meghan: you know, their dog keeps pooping on your lawn. I don't know, just thinking of random examples here, right? But like the, the, the simple annoyances that used to make you super jacked up.[00:49:00]
Those aren't, those don't even register anymore. And it's kind of cool to see. Because now your everyday kind of temperament is a little more calm, a little more relaxed. You're not flappable, you're, you know, you're like, that's nothing like, I've done this and I've done that, and like, oh, that's not uncomfortable.
I could totally do that. You know, you start to have a better perspective on some things and a better gauge for how much you can tolerate and what your limit truly is in terms of physical output.
jordana: Yep. Yeah. You get better at dealing with discomfort. By dealing with discomfort.
meghan: A hundred percent.
jordana: That's it, right? It's like our, our human bodies that are amazing and adapt and evolve, do so by what they're exposed to. Um, and it's just, it, it it in every, in every facet of life, right? This, that kind of, that, that principle and that reality holds true.
meghan: And there's no way to shortcut it either.
jordana: No, there's not. People think that there is, but there is not.
meghan: Yeah, there's no hack for [00:50:00] this. Um, I think that's one of the parts about this sport that I like a lot is that you can hack your way to success in a lot of other areas, in a lot of other sports sometimes. Um, you definitely have to have skill for certain things like basketball and golf and, you know, things like that.
But. This, you cannot hack your way to. It'll be very apparent if you show up to the starting line of a 50 K or a hundred miler and you have done the training or you have not done the training. Um, so there's very little, there's very little faking
jordana: Mm-hmm.
meghan: that you can get away with.
jordana: Yep. So if people want to learn more about this or about you, can you share kind of where people can find you, what your resources are?
meghan: Yeah. Um, everything that I put out into the world is under the, uh, name. She runs Ultras, so I'm on Instagram at, she runs Ultras. I'm on Facebook at, she runs Ultras. Um, I have a podcast called, she Runs Ultras. So, uh, try to consolidate and [00:51:00] put it under one name. But I, I have got lots of, um, got. Probably like 200.
I'm, what are we on 267 episodes of the podcast. Um, I started it back in right before 2020, so it kind of documents my journey from running. Uh, I had already run a couple 50 Ks at that point, but it, it follows me through my journey through running couple hundred milers, a 200 miler. I'm currently training for the Moab two 40, which is in October, so it's a.
240 mile race. I don't think I'm quite at the, at the 300. Don't know that I'm gonna go to 300, but this is another one of those questions that we don't have time for today, but like, which is like, at what point do you stop, you know, like at what point is it enough? Um. We could shelf that for, for another time.
But if you are interested in ultras, come find me over there. Um, you can jump on my email list. Just like Jordana, I've sent an email every week with tips and tricks and, you know, no hacks or, or shortcuts, but just findings and [00:52:00] musings, things that are going on and, and ways to help you kind of like get into this sport if you're at all interested.
jordana: Awesome. Thank you so much for being here. This has been great.
meghan: Thank you for having me. Super excited.