episode 209: the unexpected connection between chronic pain and body image with dr. tawny kross
In this episode, I’m joined by Dr. Tawny Kross, a physical therapist specializing in chronic pain who offers virtual services for clients across the globe. Tawny’s expertise and unique approach focus on understanding pain through a whole-person lens: integrating the mind, body, and emotional experience.
We dive into the powerful connection between chronic pain and body image—how the stories we tell ourselves, societal pressures, and even the language of healthcare providers can influence both physical pain and how we perceive our bodies.
Some highlights from our conversation:
The surprising parallels between chronic pain and body image struggles
Why 90% of Tawny’s work is focused on the "intangible" mental and emotional factors behind pain
How stress impacts pain, eating behaviors, and our relationship with food
Rebuilding the mind-body connection to support healing
Simple tools to start noticing and naming your body’s responses to stress and self-talk
If you’ve ever struggled with chronic pain or body image, this episode will help you feel seen and offer insights into creating more compassion and connection with your body.
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209
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jordana: Hey, everyone. Welcome back to the Diet Diaries. My computer was frozen there for a second. Um, I have a guest today. I'm excited. You guys know I don't do many guest episodes. Um, I'm here with Dr. Tawni Cross. She's a physical therapist based in North Carolina, but offers services virtually, which is awesome.
And she specializes in chronic pain. Um, and Tawni actually reached out to me, um, To see if I might be interested in having a conversation with her and I will share that like I do get a good number of like cold emails from people and I always read them. I only respond to a couple ones that are clearly written by a human.
Maybe, um, But this is maybe only the second out of many where I was like, Oh, this is really interesting. Um, cause when Tawni reached out to me, she's like, I think, could we have a conversation around chronic pain and body image? And I'm like, yup, we definitely can. Um, it's not the first time that we've talked about this on the diet diaries, but once is never, and we need to hear these things many, many times.
And [00:01:00] everyone that comes on or, you know, any guests certainly have their own kind of perspective and experience. And so, yeah, I'm really looking forward to this and, um, welcome, Tawny. Thank you for being here.
tawny: Awesome. Thank you for having me. And I'm very, very glad that you managed to, to find me amid all the cold emails you get.
jordana: Yeah, yeah, no, it's, um, I mean, it's not that I get, like, so many a day, but I get, like, maybe one or two a week and some of them are just, like, so out of left field. And I'm like, what? Like, no. And I'm like, oh, wait, this one's actually interesting. Um, so, yeah, why don't we just get started? Can you share? A little bit more specifically about what you do as a PT that specializes in chronic pain and why you do that.
Like, what was it about chronic pain that kind of drew you into that area of focus?
tawny: Yeah. So most of my career has been in a veteran's hospital. Um, actually all of my career. Um, and I've been in the veteran's hospital since 2013 and, um, I think I want to say I was a little bit naive coming out of PT school. I was like, oh [00:02:00] yeah, just give stretches and exercises, everybody will be better.
Um, and maybe that might be, uh, more true in a civilian population. Um, in the civilian population, um, chronic pain happens to be one out of five people, generally speaking, like that's the estimate that they give you. Um, and then when I entered into the veteran's hospital, the chronic pain, um, the amount of chronic pain that you see is around 80, 90 percent of the cases that you see.
So, which is a lot, which you, you can imagine that, um, if you're only equipped with stretches and exercises. to help people strengthen or whatever. It's, it leads, leads you to have very unsuccessful interactions with people where people are feeling like they're still struggling. You see people cycling through the system.
Like nobody seems to be able to manage like chronic pain very well, at least insofar as like what I've seen since 2013. Um, and so, I had to do a lot of deep diving and exploring exactly what was going on because it was either, [00:03:00] you know, just continue with what I'm doing and, and, you know, suck, let those people like suck it up.
Um, or is there something that I'm missing? And so I, I started to dive more into things like nutrition. I dove into, um, the science behind pain. I dove into clinical hypnosis. Oh my gosh, there's like so many things I actually looked into. Um, and diet was actually one big thing that I, I thought in the beginning was, was, you know, like they talk, people talk so much about gut health and inflammation.
So I was looking into things of that nature. Um, but as I, So when I learned more about pain, um, from different practices and different, um, approaches over time, it truly became to be, um, that it's, it's all of those things, right? It can't just be one thing. It's all those things that weighing together that really help people, um, change the trajectory of their lives.
And when I started to look at more of the whole person, the mind and the body and the gut, um, I started to be able to see some bigger changes with the people that were struggling so hard and [00:04:00] like 23, 40 years, finally they're starting to see some changes. And I was like, Oh my gosh. So, so amazing. And so, that's how I got into my work.
Um, really passionate about it. It's, it's just like a cool, cool area. Difficult, but really cool.
jordana: Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome. I, before I worked as a coach, I taught yoga and movement for nine years and did, um, a lot of studying, continuing at around pain science and worked with people, um, not to the extent of chronic pain that you work with. Um, But really understanding like how multifactorial it is, right?
And to your point, all the different pieces that are impacting it. And yes, like you can come and show up to yoga class two or three times a week and do a private session and work on some things that help, but it's also about addressing all these other facets of your lifestyle and behaviors and all of that.
Um, some things, parts of which are in our control, some things are not within our control, but it is. As weird as it is to say this, pain is fascinating, um, [00:05:00] which is weird because it's like pain is, you know, obviously debilitating and a terrible experience for pretty much everyone, but there's, I think on the flip side, so much opportunity, right, when you really understand how it works.
tawny: Yeah, absolutely.
jordana: Yeah. Um, so you work with, and in the veteran population, I'm going to make an assumption, but I'd love to hear like, primarily men, do you work with any women?
tawny: There are more and more women that I work with, um, and I would say that has changed a little bit over time. In the beginning, I did see like 90 percent men, but I want to say nowadays, I, I see 70, 80%. Maybe 60 70 percent men and then 30 40 percent
jordana: Oh, okay. That's a lot more than I would think. Um, you know, what's, are there differences kind of in the way that, Okay. Chronic pain impacts the different populations
tawny: Yeah.
jordana: gender. I'm, I'm kind of asking.
tawny: Yes. So actually the, um, people that struggle with, um, chronic pain conditions, [00:06:00] um, that, or just in general, um, everybody struggles, like, you can find men and women that struggle with chronic pain, but I want to say that the statistics show that women tend to be higher in number, in percentages, and some of this is hormone related, some of this is, um, You might call this the patriarchal society.
Like how, how that impacts, um, our, our person, our environment. Um, some of it is just also the perception that we're weaker. Um, the perception that like, you know, we, we, we, we need to be able to deal with more pain. There's a lot of things that, that actually make it so that women tend to be a bigger Percentage in the pain story.
jordana: That's so interesting. I was just saying pain science. Fascinating. Right? Because those are all like these intangible things that we can't control these cultural, societal expectations, but that have a huge impact, right? Um, of course, I'm gonna make a link, right? I don't like diet culture and the way these things impact how we perceive ourselves and the way we [00:07:00] eat and how we think about food.
All these intangibles that we've just grown up with, been raised with that we take. As point blank is like the sky is blue. The grass is green, right? We just internalize these things and accept them, right? And those are maybe not the best example, but meaning that. We just kind of take these things at face value and live with them and don't necessarily think about the impact that they're having, right?
Like, I, I don't know that I would have thought about sort of the, this concept that like women in general, general like are weaker, right? And so that would impact our experience of chronic pain. It makes total sense when you say it, but probably wouldn't have occurred to me.
tawny: Yeah. Yeah, it's um, if I break it down to people On a more pain sciency nervous system level thing. Usually I say hey Your nervous system is deciding between two things. Am I able to relax about this thing? Or is this threatening information and the perception that you're weaker? [00:08:00] you're eating wrong that you have to carry all this pressure around this like like of Taking care of babies and also working and also being all these things, um, or, or simply if we were specifically speaking about pain, that like pain means your body's broken, like all those things are threatening information.
Um, and being able to help people shift away from those ideas is a huge part of the healing journey.
jordana: Mm hmm. So like what, when you're working with, um. A patient, what, I'm not going to say what percentage, but what part of your work is like that? It's like the more like intangible pain science. How are you thinking about pain versus like the physical, like the true physical of physical therapy?
tawny: The movement stuff, the bread and butter of what I started my
jordana: Right.
Right. Right.
tawny: and then 10 percent physical movement. And I sometimes like to integrate. [00:09:00] The intangible stuff with the physical, because it actually makes for a more powerful experience, um, just because we learn by body experience.
Um, but a lot of my, uh, not pain specializing PTs that watch me, they're like, what do you even do nowadays? And they're like, I just talk to people. Um, but yeah, they're still moving in there. Um, I, I want to say that the practice is, tends to be fairly integrative. And as being a PT, it gives me ability to look into how much of someone's pain experience is something I need to look at on a tissue based level, a biomechanical level, versus looking at it in terms of like, what are your social, environmental, psychological factors, nutritional factors, and name again.
jordana: Right. So as I'm listening to you, I'm, I'm, it's fascinating to me that the, that the shift is like 90 percent the intangible and 10 percent like, kind of like the tactile physical stuff, it's [00:10:00] really making me think about, right, and not, not because this is what like we had talked about talking about, but like body image and how it's so, it's so intangible, right?
It's like the, the perception that we have about how we look and the feelings we have about what we look like. And how that's kind of all worth it how we have to go through a lot in our head as compared to like the tangible piece of things, which is like, you know, what's the food I'm eating? How much am I eating?
Um, you know, I'm like, kind of like losing my point in what I wanted to say here, but that there's kind of this emotional, mental, intangible component. And then there's like these sort of. Tactile, tangible skills and that work with body image and I actually never really thought about this way before. It feels like it has a lot of parallels in terms of like working with chronic pain and the way those two things are impacting a person's ability to kind of like show up and move through the world.[00:11:00]
tawny: Yeah, absolutely. The way that I, um, I, I want people to understand like the mind and the body are, they're not even roommates. They're like the same thing almost, right? Because people want to separate those two things when in reality, they're inseparable. Like if, if you're feeling trouble, like seeing something physically, there's Also a mind component, an emotional component that goes into like why, like that, um, why you're, why you're experiencing those struggles.
Um, and I, I, I think I'm losing my train of thought just like you did.
jordana: It happens all the time.
tawny: Um, but yeah, there it's, it's very intricately, intricately linked. And, um, the more that you can see that link, um, the, also the more that you can start to separate, like what is physically something that I need to, to work on and what is something that like,
jordana: Yeah, yeah, like when, when I work on [00:12:00] body image with a client, and this is something I've also personally experienced, talking about like, what does your body do for you? What's it, what, what, what are some of its functions? What does it allow you to do? I think is a really interesting way to connect or to help someone realize that connection between the mind and body and that it is like kind of one and the same, right?
That you can, you know, for instance, strength train and pick up a heavy weight and feel like the capability that your body has and feel that vitality and feel that strength. And then that starts to kind of translate and shift the way you think about your body, not just as like a thing to be looked at, but as an actual like body that has a purpose,
tawny: yeah,
jordana: really what it is.
Um, I think in terms of your point around like, the mind body, and I've heard some people refer to it as also like the body mind, like one word, right? Not like the mind body connection, but like literally mind body, no space between the D and the B, right? It's one thing. Um, it's not something that most people are used to thinking about, especially cause like mind body [00:13:00] connection has been like this.
It's like now this like colloquialism, I feel like that people just talk about, but you know, really, Just kind of, I just, that example just came to mind is like, oh, that's, you know, how I would kind of take that concept and apply it in terms of, in terms of body image, right? That way you're, the way you're talking about it as a tool in terms of how to deal with chronic pain.
tawny: Yeah, yeah. Um, and that is a lot of like the way that we talk about things developmentally is actually the body and like the very raw parts of the mind grow first before we develop these like huge, bigger, rational, logical thinking pieces. Um, and we truly do learn by like body experience. Like our posture is informed by like our moods.
Our posture is informed by like, um, what our parents told us when we were younger. Like what is like, you know, good or not good. Yeah. And obviously we don't want to use those words. I'm putting quotation marks for people who
jordana: Yeah.
tawny: Um, but yeah, like our body really, truly [00:14:00] informs what our mind learns.
Mm hmm. Mm
jordana: An easy example that people will talk about all the time is like, you know, butterflies in your stomach, right? When you get excited or nervous to meet someone or to take a test or whatever, and you feel that physically, or if you get anxious, something is causing anxiety and you feel your heart racing, right?
There's all these, I mean, lots of connections between what's happening in your mind. I mean, a panic attack is an unfortunate experience, but a great example of the physical manifestations of what's happening in your mind and they are not. You can't separate those things, they are happening like in a lockstep at the same time, and one is constantly kind of like feeding or fueling the other.
Um,
tawny: Yeah. There's, there's, I think also research examples where if you tilt backward in space, you're actually likely to think more about the past. And if you tilt forward in space, you think about the future, which is like super fascinating to me.
jordana: my God. I love this stuff. It's like, I've been fascinated by the human body since I was a kid. Um, and now like, as my workers [00:15:00] transitioned more into like coaching and skills and behavior change and whatnot, like the psych, the psychology piece of things is just fascinating. Um, so what is like, as we're kind of talking about pain science and, and, and body image, what has been your experience?
Um, And I guess with men, I mean, primarily our listeners are women and I work with women, but we don't have to only speak about women because you're working with, you know, you know, both men and women. Um, what has been your experience with a link or a connection between someone who is living with chronic pain and their body image, meaning like how they feel about how their body looks, how they feel about how their body functions?
Um,
tawny: Yeah, um, I would say it is a very strong, if I had to give a percentage like 99, 90 percent link, if you believe your body's broken, if you believe that you have a quote, bad back, if you have a weak core, if you're the tightest person in the world, the least flexible, unfortunately, sometimes [00:16:00] the providers actually lend their You to think about these things too.
They're like, Oh my gosh, you're, you've got like the worst looking spine I've ever had. You need to lose weight. You know, like if you're, you're overweight and if you just lose weight, then like, you'll, you'll feel so much better about yourself. Your pain will be gone. And that is unfortunately like, and the B it's probably the beginning foundation of some of the work that I do with people, like helping them unwind that and be like, actually, like, we want to challenge this because while like the physical stuff is something we want to consider.
It actually, it's the worry, it's the pressure, it's the stress of trying to maintain this image of like I have to be a skinny person or I have to be a, um, a strong heavy weight lifter in order for, for me to not have pain when in reality, you know, like what's his name? Ronnie Goldman? The guy who's like the, Like weightlifter, like he has incredible amounts of pain and he was like lifting super heavy.
He did, was certainly wasn't a weak person. And you have so many examples of people who are different shapes and sizes and they have pain. So we, so we, we want to re [00:17:00] remember that, like what the doctors are saying, um, we have a ability to challenge that, right. We don't have to accept everything that they say with like, um, as if there were gold.
jordana: Yes. Yeah, I think what you mentioned about the language that is used, and to your point, and you, and you kind of like called out your own profession, that like, so much of comes from the medical profession in terms of like the language that's used that then impacts how people feel, right? Like you, great example.
Well, two, two that you said, one, which you weren't actually saying is that like a PT or a doctor would say, so maybe that's like a separate thing, but that was the idea of like, oh, I have a bad back. I have a bad knee. So maybe we can talk about that a bit separately, but more in the erythro realm of like, You know, oh, you need to lose weight.
If you lose 20 pounds, that'll fix your knees. You just got, you're just carrying too much weight around on your knees. Right. And that will fix everything. And then, so you have, you say that it's not you, but someone else says this to a patient, to a client, and then they leave. [00:18:00] With. Not only no resources or support or skills with which to pursue this directive that the doctor or the PT or whoever has just given to them, but also has the doc, has that, has that medical professional taken any consideration to that person's history with weight loss?
or eating or body image, right? So it's like people are looked at as silos, as just like parts, parts that are connected by skin and bones and connective tissue, not as like a, I mean, I always talk about the human body as an ecosystem. What's happening down in your toe is affecting what's happening up on your head and vice versa, oversimplified, but that's kind of the point.
Um, and it's so, I mean, I, I, I hear this from clients all the time. So many people come to me and my doctor told me I need to lose weight. My doctor told me I need to lose weight. And the doctors just say this, like, well, just eat more, eat less and exercise more. And it's like, do you not realize you're fueling like another generation of disordered eating?
So anyway, just to come back to the circle, back [00:19:00] to the point of the language that is used and the assumptions that we make around all of this plays such a huge role in that, you know, kind of. Mind body relationship and in our ability in the way that we kind of think about our bodies,
tawny: hmm. Yeah. And I, and I think like, I think it's partially because the way that doctors are taught or providers are taught, like you, you, you learn this stuff and then you assume, okay, like I just say this and you don't realize you're causing any harm even though you are. Sure. Um, and we want to realize that like.
Um, when it comes to something like the way that you're saying these things, you're often placing judgment and shame, um, into those words, whether or not you're realizing it. Like you're saying, this is on you. You lose the weight, you eat too much, or like, [00:20:00] you're the one who doesn't exercise enough. And when in reality, like people, like, I mean, people want to get better, like they don't want to like sit there and like do nothing.
Um, and so I think it's, it's so important nowadays to um, they do some of it, not as much as I think they need to, like teaching doctors like how to actually interact with patients and realizing like their words and how they phrase things totally matters.
jordana: So when people come into you, when patients come into you, do you find that they are walking in with some of those experiences as like baggage for lack of a better term that you're now having to kind of undo things that Either other, you know, other PTs or doctors want to have said to them that's impacting their chronic pain and then the way that they are kind of connecting to and seeing their body.
tawny: Yeah, um, that, that would be one of the number one things I use as a way to help validate the person and also connect with them is just like, look, your pain is real and you've been told a lot of unkind and unhelpful [00:21:00] things by doctors and like, you know, not wanting to blame anybody, but like, and these things don't serve you and they're not true.
Um, and we want to start to realize that to help you heal, um, one pain is always real. And then two, some of the way that, um, Your, your system, your, your body or your person feels emotionally loaded might be impacting that pain experience.
jordana: Yeah, I was curious and you just started to get into it a little bit, but maybe we can talk about a bit more like for someone who you are kind of seeing a very. I guess overt connection between their chronic pain and the way that is impacting their body image. The way they talk about their body. The way they talk about their appearance. How do you approach that? Um, I'm kind of thinking even in terms of like people who might be listening who are dealing with chronic pain, right? Like are there any kind of takeaways or things that they could start to pay attention to [00:22:00] or notice based on the way that you work with people that might be helpful?
Sure.
tawny: Yeah, um, like a very simple thing is just to be aware because like typically speaking if because the physical and emotional pathways are so tied and If you notice like stress increases your pain, which is very very common the stress of your body image Like just pay attention. If you're noticing you're saying to yourself something like unkind, like, um, Oh gosh, like I'm overweight or something.
Just notice for a second how that makes your body feel either on an emotional or physical level. Is it giving you more stress or is it giving you less? And if it's giving you more stress, chances are it actually might heighten or make that pain experience a little bit more amplified.
jordana: Right, so just like paying attention, kind of like a little bit of like a notice and name process.
tawny: Yeah.
jordana: Got it. Um, so you mentioned, so you work with veterans in North Carolina, but you mentioned that you also work virtually. Is that like separate from your work with veterans?
tawny: Yeah. I [00:23:00] have a business that. I don't think anybody that I've ever worked with virtually has been local. Um, I have people from California to Australia. Um, so that's always kind of a fun thing, like just juggling the time zones, but yeah, like it's, it's, it's really amazing to see, um, Just nowadays, what like Zoom or, you know, those virtual meetings can do for you and allow and people, I think people sometimes get like leery about, um, being in a virtual space, like how much can you do for me if it's all virtual?
And in reality, there's like, there's so much you can do on, um, to help with pain. Um, and you can still actually do physical stuff with virtual meetings.
jordana: So you work, so the patients you're working with virtually are the same, chronic pain patients?
tawny: They're women, but yes, they're not veterans.
jordana: Okay. So, you know, I guess kind of, you know, coming back to, and we've talked a little bit about this, but, um, You had mentioned kind of up front when you sort of got into [00:24:00] this area that you were looking at the way nutrition impacted things, the way diet impacted things, I'm curious as to like, as you work, I guess, either with your veteran populations or your, you know, I guess, private client base, I'll call it, um, do you observe or what do you notice or what has worked in terms of the role of food, the role of nutrition with the chronic pain piece with, um, Yeah.
You know, I guess really with their chronic pain piece like in the people that you're working with
tawny: Yeah. So I actually, when I first, um, explored outside of more PT related, um, areas, diving into nutrition was one of the very first things. And I, I think learning in the nutrition approaches to chronic pain, number one thing, I was like, okay, it's not definitely not about like the information, right? Just teaching you, okay, you need to eat this and you need to eat that.
And this would be good for you, even though if you're looking at the research and the things, obviously that is true. Um, like you see the anti inflammatory foods [00:25:00] can be really helpful for your guy and can help with inflammation and pain. Um, Because what, what really happened when I started to talk about these things with people were that people had a general sense of, of like what was helpful and not helpful to eat and they were struggling with the doing and that related to their emotional, their, um, mental, the, the body image stuff.
Um, as an example of this, I had, um, someone who really wanted to do hypnosis around, um, food. She's like, just give me food. Give me something like, like put me in a trance so that I don't have, I don't crave food anymore. And I was like, I don't know that this would be the best way to go. And she was like, no, just, I think this will be helpful.
And I'm like, okay. Um, so I started to put her, um, I talked to her through like a hypno, hypnotic kind of, Um, introduction, induction is what they call it. And then I started to mention about like helping her shift cravings. And then she grabbed my arm and she said, stop. And I looked at her and I'm like, [00:26:00] what, what, what do you, what's going on?
She goes, I don't want to do this. And I, and I had a feeling this was going to come up because I knew her a little bit more. Um, I had been working with her for several months and she goes, I, I don't want to actually stop my cravings. And I nodded my head and she, she said, it's because I feel like I don't have anything else good in my life.
If I take away food, what else do I have? And so like, it was, it was like that type of type of, um, interaction people where I realized, you know, it's not just, I can't give you, you know, nutritional information, say don't do this and don't do that. And when, in reality, you've got so many layers underneath that making this relationship with food difficult.
jordana: yes, that's so interesting. As you were saying that I was like, I think I had a feeling that you were going to say something along that space where she was like afraid to not have that right that there's this safety this protection that the food is giving you. Um, yeah, and just, you know, thinking about all the ways and then which that connects back to. [00:27:00] How you feel in your body, like when we, when I talk with clients about these thought patterns and behaviors that we do very similar to pain, like their, their protection, right? They may, they might be old, they're conditioned based on a lifetime of experiences based on society and culture and expectations and all that, but it's all coming from a place of protection.
And it's recognizing, like, when we restrict food, we try to diet, like, we're trying to protect ourselves from being in an uncomfortable place, from being in a body that we don't know necessarily how to be in, or be in a body that society has told us is not okay, or, um, because it feels, makes us feel like we're in control, and starting to, like, recognize kind of why we're doing these things is really what makes the connection to, like, to your point, like, most people know What we're supposed to do in terms of food, right?
We know the difference between, like, eating something nutritious for breakfast and, you know, eating pizza every morning for breakfast. Um, it's like, [00:28:00] well, how do I do that, right? And it's like, how do we close that gap? Um, and that's really where, you know, I mean, it makes sense, like, why 90 percent of your work is spent kind of working with people on the more intangible pieces behind pain, and it's the same thing with, like, the behavior.
It's like, well, how do we start to shift that? Um, it's not just saying, oh, just go cook a bunch of grilled chicken every Sunday and meal prep all week. It's like, yeah, well, I know that I should do that, again, air quotes around the should. Why am I not doing that and kind of uncovering and, and, and, and digging beneath that and helping people kind of.
Close the gaps between what I know I need to do and what would actually benefit me and Making it happen. Mm
tawny: Right. And I think also people don't realize that the stress element, not only one, impairs the gut system to actually behave in a way that is like what it was designed for, [00:29:00] the stress system also makes you want to eat foods that are highly rewarding, which is why it's so Mm You wanna go beyond like just the food pieces and look into the stressors?
jordana: Yes. Yeah, absolutely Trust plays a huge role in our ability to make thoughtful choices and be intentional and It can really make people feel out of control Yeah. Um, what else do you feel like might be helpful to share in terms of the work that you do as it relates to anything related to food or body image, diet, culture, eating habits, anything like that?
tawny: Oh gosh. I feel like there's like so many things that we could talk about. I'm sure this conversation would go on forever if we let it. Um, I would say, uh, number one, um, if I had to like order things, um, I would say if you start to look at the, looking at addressing the stress. Rather [00:30:00] than reducing stress because I think people sometimes people get into this idea Like if I just reduce my stress and then he's like, but I feel like i'm always in stress I'm like, yeah, like you can't always Tant, like really reduce stress like it exists.
It's your ability to be able to meet those stressors and navigate through them. It's your skills in in being able to regulate your nervous system through those things that actually help you and then when you start to be able to have those skill sets Um, when you look into some of the mindset, the emotional work, that will enable you to be more successful in reaching like the tangible outcomes, which is why you and I probably do so much more like the underground work.
Because like the surface stuff is easy, um, well looks easy, but you have to tackle the underground stuff first.
jordana: Yes. Yeah. Um, it's so funny how you talked about not reducing stress, but looking at how to kind of manage it and work with it. I hate when people will say like, yeah, just like reduce your [00:31:00] stress. You can't eliminate. You can't eliminate your job. You can't eliminate like when your kid is homesick. You can't eliminate deadlines.
You can't eliminate bills like that's life. It's about how do I navigate this? How do I cope with this? How do I move through it in a, you know, better way? Better is not the best word, but, um, in a way that's not, you Impacting me as much as it is in terms of like the pain might be or the way that I'm using food or relying on these, these different pieces, but really learning those skills of how to, I guess, cope with it.
But, um, feel more confident to deal with it instead of like, just like, I'm like less like this is happening to me and more I can like work through this a little bit more of like that kind of empowered proactive approach. But yeah, just that switch of like, it's not about getting rid of stress because that's not going to happen.
It's more about how can I learn how to better deal with it or more effectively, I should say, deal with it.[00:32:00]
tawny: Yeah. I think a good example of this is like this book. Like, I don't want to bring my husband in this, but I'm going to, I guess is the way that like my husband and I think differently. Like if, if I'm given a task, let's say I have to, um, pack for a, a thing ahead of me, like some sort of travel event, he and I behave completely differently.
For me, it's, it feels manageable because it's one task, the way that I see, think about it emotionally, like meet this thing. It feels. Really easy, but then like he tends to have more of like what if this happens what this happens what this happens? What has and so essentially he's like holding 20 different futures and trying to plan for all of those things Which makes it like this huge overwhelming experience and like might lead to anxiety And so we want to recognize there's there's external pressure and then there's what we can actually regulate like how can we see this?
thing differently? Can we change the way that this internal pressure is, is to my system?
jordana: Yes. Yes. Right? Again, like having an awareness of noticing [00:33:00] your tendencies and the stories that your brain is telling you, recognize that that's happening and being able to like separate a little bit that from kind of your autonomy and your ability to make like a thoughtful choice that's in alignment with the action you need to take and what's going to feel good for you.
tawny: Mm hmm. Yeah.
jordana: Um, anything else that's like top of mind that you wanted to share or talk through or that? You know, would be, I think I already asked you this, but like, that would be helpful for anyone listening.
tawny: Um, just like, I think it would be just really helpful to re emphasize that it doesn't matter your shape or your body to, to know that one, like you can be, you know, quote overweight, unquote. And just for people that are listening, BMI is again, something that people like this is a rough guideline and that doesn't really dictate everything that you are in [00:34:00] terms of health.
Um, But that the body, what your body looks like, doesn't correlate very well with pain. And then two, what is true, is that with people who do have chronic pain, or let's say, relationship with food issues, there's actually a very strong mind body disconnection, um, meaning that your body is, um, it's, it's altered in what it looks like to you.
Um, and this can come out in. very obvious ways like body dysmorphia, and it can come out in really, really subtle ways. Like if you have chronic pain, for instance, and I were to poke around on your back and to draw like a letter in your back, if I, if I drew the letter A in an area of pain, you may not actually be able to tell what I'm drawing because your mind body disconnection is so big.
jordana: Mm hmm.
tawny: Um, so there's some really fascinating things about like mind body disconnection and truly [00:35:00] like, The healing space comes with learning how to realign your mind and body so that they're actually working together, integrating those things.
jordana: Um, so when you were just talking about the, like, if you were to like draw a letter on someone's back that was in chronic pain, in that area of pain, they wouldn't be able to kind of feel that or identify it. And that's someone who experiences that might be more likely or more susceptible to have more of a disconnect in terms of like, Their relationship with food in terms of how food impacts them how they feel about food.
tawny: Mm hmm. Yeah,
jordana: Okay, interesting. Um
tawny: and I mean, I don't know that it's like necessarily like a high percentage, but like the the what we see Consistently in the research is that when you have a strong mind body disconnection You also have gut issues more mental health issues more depression more body image likelihood and the people There's a strong.
Um People who've had eating disorders let's say at the beginning of the lives [00:36:00] are more likely people who have chronic pain in the future
jordana: Interesting. Okay, so it's really about There's like this umbrella over all these things right of that mind body Connection and working on skills and tools and getting support to work with that can then kind of have like this like trickle down domino
tawny: Mm hmm
jordana: Effect to impact things right and that's why I like the work that you do is so interesting in that You Right?
10 percent kind of physical, 90 percent more, I'll call it mental, to like generalize. To me then, there's such a carryover of that mental piece to all these other facets, right? It's not just like, yes, the pain is what's bringing someone into what you're working on. But then I would imagine they become other skills that help you kind of manage and deal with this disconnect or rebuilding that mind body connection that impacts all these other parts of your life.
tawny: yeah. Is, yeah. And you, I think you used the, used the word I like to use earlier, like ecosystem, like it's essentially like this beautiful connecting ecosystem. And, and the way that [00:37:00] Jordana, you just, um, said it is, is hopefully encouraging rather than overwhelming because sometimes people are just like, but I feel like I've gotta like to plug all these holes and work on all these different areas.
And in reality, there is carryover, like you, a small, one small change in one small area will actually affect multiple areas in your body's ecosystem.
jordana: Yes, and I actually find that so much in the coaching work I do where a woman will come in and we'll be working on challenges a relationship with food and then a couple months into our work she'll say like I'm noticing that my behavior in other parts of my life is different. I'm setting more boundaries with people.
I'm being more assertive. I'm speaking up for myself. I'm speaking to myself more kindly. All these different pieces and it's like, oh my God. It's like the carryover from these things again is so profound and so real that I think the point you made is so important. It's not, I mean, it can feel overwhelming, but it doesn't need to be because you can work on one area and then it kind of, [00:38:00] Inherently and intrinsically spreads out from there to other areas of your life that need that support.
tawny: Yeah, that is, that is exactly right.
jordana: Awesome. Awesome. That's like a, I feel like a perfect ending point. Um, can you share how people can connect with you, learn more about the work that you do and the services that you offer?
tawny: Sure, I'm most active on Instagram. Um, In fact, if you wanted to have a mind body awareness meditation, just message me like mind body awareness meditation and, um, I will send that right over to you. Um, but yeah, find me on Instagram. It's, uh, you should probably have it in your show notes, I'm assuming.
jordana: I will. Yeah.
tawny: Um, but it's because I'm like, I have so many periods, dr.
tani. kross, cross.
jordana: Okay. Yeah. It'll be in the show notes so people will be able to find it easily. And thank you for, um, offering that. That sounds awesome. I might, I might take you up on that myself.
tawny: You're welcome.
jordana: Um, awesome. It was so nice to meet you and I'm just really appreciate your time and all of your [00:39:00] insight. Thank you.
tawny: I super duper appreciate you having me on.